Chipping a griff
Discussion
I am looking help from all you griff engine experts. I have been in contact with mark adams and I intend to get his tornedeo chip. I sent him some pics of the spark plugs as well as I was surprised at just how soothy and black they were. After talking to mark he believes there is an injector issue and has suggested changing from the lucus injectors to the bosh/weber injectors which will give a better burn pattern and an extra 9lb of torgue. My question is has anybody changed to these injectors and felt the benifit. As they are approx twise the price of the lucas ones I want to make sure it is money well spent. The car is going to be used at TVR track days and this is the second step to upgrading its performance. Brackes were done last year
I remember speaking to a chap at the Hants TVRCC meet that had just had this done. He was very impressed with the results, and said the car ran much smoother.
Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to go out in his car to see what the difference was and how much better it is to standard Lucas injectors.
Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to go out in his car to see what the difference was and how much better it is to standard Lucas injectors.
VEG said:
It costs the same as an engine chip (after all the ancillary costs are added on)and will make you considerably faster on the track.
Not quite:
Tornado Chip £800ish including rolling road.
Nitrons: £1300 including fitting and VAT.
However the suspension is more likely to make a difference around the track.
Ian A.
not sure which one's are which.
bosch normally fitted by mark but i think the biggest are webber 031's which is what i currently run.
very similar and will run fine without ballast resistors etc direct from ECU
not sure if either are the Masser's, if any. i had some Rover Turbo ones in mine for a while which were spitting optimax out the back!!!
they were too big (obviously) but mark will fit the best.
bosch normally fitted by mark but i think the biggest are webber 031's which is what i currently run.
very similar and will run fine without ballast resistors etc direct from ECU
not sure if either are the Masser's, if any. i had some Rover Turbo ones in mine for a while which were spitting optimax out the back!!!
they were too big (obviously) but mark will fit the best.
Can't say I noticed any particular improvement going from Lucas to Bosch. But I don't think you'd necessarily expect it to be obvious - an improvement of 9 bhp is barely perceptable to the seat of the pants. Probably make a big difference if the Lucas ones were knackered to start with though!
Plenum top and trumpet base off, ten minutes at the most with the right tools. Say another twenty minutes to pull the old injectors from the fuel rail, clean everything up and unpack and fit the new injectors, another ten minutes to refit the fuel rail, trumpet base and plenum. The Bosch injectors have a much higher flow rating so you would need a new chip to suit. If your ECU has already had a socket fitted you could probably get the chip posted to you and fit it yourself, assuming that Mark knew what your existing map was. This would save you the cost of a rolling road setup. If yours hasn't had the 'Mark Adams' magic touch before though, I would recommend that you do get him to set it up properly for you on a rolling road. The peak power and torque numbers don't change much but the driveability is transformed 
.
.Thanks guys for the comments to date and I will let you know the overall results in due course. Taking the car to mark to get it rolling roaded is not that easy for me as I live in Belfast but with the change left over from a small job I done at the Northern Bank I can Afford to splash out and get the good injectors
I had the Bosch Injectors (and remember also that the airflow meter may be changed to Bosch as well) I also had the Tornado chip and top hose changed and a rolling road session with Mr Adams. It was the best money i have spent on the car without a doubt!
I did have a pinking problem at high end which pushed me in to getting the work done but don't regret it for a second , Torque went through the roof! and also big gain in bhp, but the whole running is so much smoother and it just pulls throughout the whole rev range , engine just runs and feels so much better.
I did have a pinking problem at high end which pushed me in to getting the work done but don't regret it for a second , Torque went through the roof! and also big gain in bhp, but the whole running is so much smoother and it just pulls throughout the whole rev range , engine just runs and feels so much better.
only me said:
I had the Bosch Injectors (and remember also that the airflow meter may be changed to Bosch as well) I also had the Tornado chip and top hose changed and a rolling road session with Mr Adams. It was the best money i have spent on the car without a doubt!
I did have a pinking problem at high end which pushed me in to getting the work done but don't regret it for a second , Torque went through the roof! and also big gain in bhp, but the whole running is so much smoother and it just pulls throughout the whole rev range , engine just runs and feels so much better.
This is along the lines of what I had planned. Specifically I was going to have new ACT air inlet pipe from air filter to plenum, new Bosch Air Flow Meter, new Bosch Injectors, new ACT carbon trumpets, pre-cat removal and then have Mark Adams tornado chip and set up by him on Austec's rolling road.
I had a similar problem with pinking and after speaking to Austec I wanted to sort out most things in one go. By that I mean, get more air into the engine + better fuel delivery and then free up the exhaust a bit as well. I was basically thinking along the lines of if you're going to change one bit, you might as well upgrade corresponding bits as well?
I had hoped for those mods to give me gains of around 20-30bhp (might be a tad optimistic there) and similar gains in torque. The only problem was i now have to spend the money I'd earmarked for that on my house!
Let me know how you get on. All the best - Chris
Painey
you KNOW it makes sence! do as much as you can in one hit saves dupilcation and errors!
less of your (and marks valuable) time, less R/R time and saves pulling the induction, wiring/connections about so much.
fit all at once at the R/R and all issues can be found and addressed (usually in the original set up costs).
mine turned into a bit of a development mule and i ended up spending alot more than i could have, but the results were astounding!
if you intend to do the induction work for power gains, save up for a couple of extra months and go the full monty, not only will it be cheaper, but you will feel that lovely power/tractability all in one hit!
stick abit extra on your credit card and pay it of over a couple of extra months!
I guarantee you'll be smiling the WHOLE time!
Waiver: guillotine is not a franchised outlet for mark adams, austec or act power products. no animals were hurt during the development of the Griff and any similarity between the the car and a comet is entirely coincidental.
you KNOW it makes sence! do as much as you can in one hit saves dupilcation and errors!
less of your (and marks valuable) time, less R/R time and saves pulling the induction, wiring/connections about so much.
fit all at once at the R/R and all issues can be found and addressed (usually in the original set up costs).
mine turned into a bit of a development mule and i ended up spending alot more than i could have, but the results were astounding!
if you intend to do the induction work for power gains, save up for a couple of extra months and go the full monty, not only will it be cheaper, but you will feel that lovely power/tractability all in one hit!
stick abit extra on your credit card and pay it of over a couple of extra months!
I guarantee you'll be smiling the WHOLE time!
Waiver: guillotine is not a franchised outlet for mark adams, austec or act power products. no animals were hurt during the development of the Griff and any similarity between the the car and a comet is entirely coincidental.
Guillotine said:
Painey
you KNOW it makes sence! do as much as you can in one hit saves dupilcation and errors!
less of your (and marks valuable) time, less R/R time and saves pulling the induction, wiring/connections about so much.
fit all at once at the R/R and all issues can be found and addressed (usually in the original set up costs).
mine turned into a bit of a development mule and i ended up spending alot more than i could have, but the results were astounding!
if you intend to do the induction work for power gains, save up for a couple of extra months and go the full monty, not only will it be cheaper, but you will feel that lovely power/tractability all in one hit!
stick abit extra on your credit card and pay it of over a couple of extra months!
I guarantee you'll be smiling the WHOLE time!
Waiver: guillotine is not a franchised outlet for mark adams, austec or act power products. no animals were hurt during the development of the Griff and any similarity between the the car and a comet is entirely coincidental.
Thanks! The plan was to do as much as possible in one hit to save on future remapping costs etc etc. as to me that seems the sensible option. It's a real pain in the arse that I will definitely have to put it off for a while though. However, only yesterday I was looking at ACT performace manifolds as part of the modifications as well so knowing me, by the time I do get round to having it done I'll have plumped for one of them and a triple plenum as well!!!
It's funny actually because I've just got back from Gatwick TVR (had to pick up a new wiper arm) and one of the guy's there was suggesting I upgrade to a Tuscan. Now nice as they are, I said I don't like the idea of the S6 Engine going pop and that I prefer the comparitively bullet proof RV8. And, if I can make my Griff practically as fast as a Tuscan then it's all good!
Now if only they had better seats...
Cheers - Chris
>> Edited by Painey on Saturday 8th January 12:43
damn wife just read last thread b*gger!I spent a considerable amount of time last year in the company of Mark Adams whilst my egine was being converted from a rather tired 84,000 miler to a rip snorting 330bhp monster. I learnt much along the way.
One thing I did learn, which surprised me at the time, was that Mark is still learning. I naively thought that since he has been in the business of tweaking V8s for many years, he knew all there was to know about them. However, even now, there are new products coming on to the market which he is seeing for the first time.
To start with, each engine is different, even standard ones. The bores, cam timing, ingition timing, etc. vary and so every engine will be in a slightly different state of tune, and react differently to Mark fettling. This means that each engine needs to be set up differently to get the most out of it. Therefore, unlike most mass produced cars where you can go and buy a superchips chip and except big increases, and off the shelf chip from Mark will almost certainly not produce the best results for your engine, hence a rolling road session with him is money well spent, even if it does bump the price up considerably for the conversion.
Mine was the first engine Mark worked with that had the new TVR Power Taraka cam installed, a cam about which Mark knows very little, as the profile is kept a bit of a secret by TVR Power. Therefore, all he could do was the make adjustments to fuelling and ignition, and measure the effect on the dyno to find the optimum settings for those areas he can influence.
I fitted the ACT triple throttle body plenum as soon as I got the car back from TVR Power, which was installed when Mark dyno'd the car. In his opinion it was running out of fuel at the top end, hence the recommendation to fit the larger Weber injectors. Again these were new the the RV8 market, having been installed in Guillotine's car for the first time on the same day we were all at Mech Repairs.
I must say I am surprised that Mark has recommended fitting these on an otherwise standard engine, as there is plenty of capacity left in the standard injectors on a standard engine, i.e. you shouldn't be getting sufficient air into the engine to require more fuel than the Luca injectors can deliver.
Is it possible that he thinks your injectors are knackered, and rather than buying a new standrad set, he is saying you might as well buy the Webers so you have the extra capacity should you go for more improvements in the future?
If this is the case, you may be better off buying a matched set of cleaned second hand standard injectors for around £150. The webers are over £600 + VAT and Mech Repairs in Cheltenham are as cheap as anywhere to buy them from.
Even with a Mark Adams chip. Bosch airflow meter and ACT intake hose I would be very surprised if you ran out of fuel. You would need a different cam and larger throttle bodies for this.
Hope this helps....
One thing I did learn, which surprised me at the time, was that Mark is still learning. I naively thought that since he has been in the business of tweaking V8s for many years, he knew all there was to know about them. However, even now, there are new products coming on to the market which he is seeing for the first time.
To start with, each engine is different, even standard ones. The bores, cam timing, ingition timing, etc. vary and so every engine will be in a slightly different state of tune, and react differently to Mark fettling. This means that each engine needs to be set up differently to get the most out of it. Therefore, unlike most mass produced cars where you can go and buy a superchips chip and except big increases, and off the shelf chip from Mark will almost certainly not produce the best results for your engine, hence a rolling road session with him is money well spent, even if it does bump the price up considerably for the conversion.
Mine was the first engine Mark worked with that had the new TVR Power Taraka cam installed, a cam about which Mark knows very little, as the profile is kept a bit of a secret by TVR Power. Therefore, all he could do was the make adjustments to fuelling and ignition, and measure the effect on the dyno to find the optimum settings for those areas he can influence.
I fitted the ACT triple throttle body plenum as soon as I got the car back from TVR Power, which was installed when Mark dyno'd the car. In his opinion it was running out of fuel at the top end, hence the recommendation to fit the larger Weber injectors. Again these were new the the RV8 market, having been installed in Guillotine's car for the first time on the same day we were all at Mech Repairs.
I must say I am surprised that Mark has recommended fitting these on an otherwise standard engine, as there is plenty of capacity left in the standard injectors on a standard engine, i.e. you shouldn't be getting sufficient air into the engine to require more fuel than the Luca injectors can deliver.
Is it possible that he thinks your injectors are knackered, and rather than buying a new standrad set, he is saying you might as well buy the Webers so you have the extra capacity should you go for more improvements in the future?
If this is the case, you may be better off buying a matched set of cleaned second hand standard injectors for around £150. The webers are over £600 + VAT and Mech Repairs in Cheltenham are as cheap as anywhere to buy them from.
Even with a Mark Adams chip. Bosch airflow meter and ACT intake hose I would be very surprised if you ran out of fuel. You would need a different cam and larger throttle bodies for this.
Hope this helps....
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