Porsche 996Turbo vs C2/4S 997 RELIABILITY
Discussion
Hi all,
Long time lurker but only just joined this forum. .
After talking a good fight and saving up for the past few years I'm about to buy my first weekend car. I've narrowed it down to a Porsche 911. Either the 996Turbo, 997.1 C2S or 997 C4S.
I don't want to go over old ground by asking "which is best", because I've already read loads on this topic. My question is purely about reliability and running costs.
I've read that the 996 engine is pretty bulletproof and is probably the only engine Id touch out of the 996 range, but haven't found much regarding the 997.1 C2S and C4S engines? Are they the same engine? What are the known issues?
Which of the above 3 cars are most reliable? And what about servicing/parts costs? I'm not bothered about fuel costs as it will be a weekend toy only but what I don't want is an unreliable motor.
Many thanks,
Rob
Long time lurker but only just joined this forum. .
After talking a good fight and saving up for the past few years I'm about to buy my first weekend car. I've narrowed it down to a Porsche 911. Either the 996Turbo, 997.1 C2S or 997 C4S.
I don't want to go over old ground by asking "which is best", because I've already read loads on this topic. My question is purely about reliability and running costs.
I've read that the 996 engine is pretty bulletproof and is probably the only engine Id touch out of the 996 range, but haven't found much regarding the 997.1 C2S and C4S engines? Are they the same engine? What are the known issues?
Which of the above 3 cars are most reliable? And what about servicing/parts costs? I'm not bothered about fuel costs as it will be a weekend toy only but what I don't want is an unreliable motor.
Many thanks,
Rob
JapanRed said:
Hi all,
Long time lurker but only just joined this forum. .
After talking a good fight and saving up for the past few years I'm about to buy my first weekend car. I've narrowed it down to a Porsche 911. Either the 996Turbo, 997.1 C2S or 997 C4S.
I don't want to go over old ground by asking "which is best", because I've already read loads on this topic. My question is purely about reliability and running costs.
I've read that the 996 engine is pretty bulletproof and is probably the only engine Id touch out of the 996 range, but haven't found much regarding the 997.1 C2S and C4S engines? Are they the same engine? What are the known issues?
Which of the above 3 cars are most reliable? And what about servicing/parts costs? I'm not bothered about fuel costs as it will be a weekend toy only but what I don't want is an unreliable motor.
Many thanks,
Rob
I researched the same this time last year. My research showedLong time lurker but only just joined this forum. .
After talking a good fight and saving up for the past few years I'm about to buy my first weekend car. I've narrowed it down to a Porsche 911. Either the 996Turbo, 997.1 C2S or 997 C4S.
I don't want to go over old ground by asking "which is best", because I've already read loads on this topic. My question is purely about reliability and running costs.
I've read that the 996 engine is pretty bulletproof and is probably the only engine Id touch out of the 996 range, but haven't found much regarding the 997.1 C2S and C4S engines? Are they the same engine? What are the known issues?
Which of the above 3 cars are most reliable? And what about servicing/parts costs? I'm not bothered about fuel costs as it will be a weekend toy only but what I don't want is an unreliable motor.
Many thanks,
Rob
996 Turbo as most reliable engine wise, but may well needs cash spending onrads
996/997.1 non turbo's have issues with IMS and bore scoring and are probably the highest risk purchases
997.2 should be fine
I ended up buying a Lotus Evora
Edited by blueg33 on Thursday 1st January 20:09
blueg33 said:
I researched the same this time last year. My research showed
996 Turbo as most reliable engine wise, but may well needs cash spending onrads
996/997.1 non turbo's have issues with IMS and bore scoring and are probably the highest risk purchases
997.2 should be fine
I ended up buying a Lotus Evora
Thanks for the info Blueg. Strange you mention the Evora, I've got a test drive in one booked for tomorrow 😉 What made you go for the Lotus in the end? And what are your thoughts of it so far? What's Lotus reliability like?996 Turbo as most reliable engine wise, but may well needs cash spending onrads
996/997.1 non turbo's have issues with IMS and bore scoring and are probably the highest risk purchases
997.2 should be fine
I ended up buying a Lotus Evora
Edited by blueg33 on Thursday 1st January 20:09
When you say cash spending on rads, what exactly is the issue here?
And is there a preventative measure to combat IMS and bore scorching on the 997.1s?
franki68 said:
My 996 turbo engine caught fire,does that count as bulletproof ? ( I am not Alone in that experience either).
I suppose that depends on percentages. If this only ever happened twice then it's not really an issue. Can you provide any more info on this as I've not heard of it before?Thanks
JapanRed said:
blueg33 said:
I researched the same this time last year. My research showed
996 Turbo as most reliable engine wise, but may well needs cash spending onrads
996/997.1 non turbo's have issues with IMS and bore scoring and are probably the highest risk purchases
997.2 should be fine
I ended up buying a Lotus Evora
Thanks for the info Blueg. Strange you mention the Evora, I've got a test drive in one booked for tomorrow ?? What made you go for the Lotus in the end? And what are your thoughts of it so far? What's Lotus reliability like?996 Turbo as most reliable engine wise, but may well needs cash spending onrads
996/997.1 non turbo's have issues with IMS and bore scoring and are probably the highest risk purchases
997.2 should be fine
I ended up buying a Lotus Evora
Edited by blueg33 on Thursday 1st January 20:09
When you say cash spending on rads, what exactly is the issue here?
And is there a preventative measure to combat IMS and bore scorching on the 997.1s?
The Evora has the most amazing steering feedback, handling and balance, that and the looks sold me pretty quickly, plus for me the Evora has more sense of occasion and is a whole lot less common. My mates (who mainly have Porsches and Ferrari's) were all amazed at how fast the Evora can go around corners.
My car does 20k miles pa and is perfectly reliable, its a daily driver. Some people have small niggles with trim and the early cars have a really annoying Alpine head unit. It can be annoying as a daily because its tricky to get in and out of and you have to select parking spaces carefully, but TBH those things add to the sense of occasion. The seats are very comfortable and its worth IMO getting a car with all three packs, Premium, Sport and Tech. The rear seats are useful for the odd school run (small kids only) and for extra luggage space. Make sure that the car you test drive and maybe buy has the 2012 gear change cables, most have been done under warranty. Pre 2012 cables make teh gear change a bit clunky, post 2012 are fine.
Mr car also lives outside, and that doesn't appear to cause any problems either. My car has a couple of niggles, a small part of teh sitching on the leather dash is coming apart (but you cant see that at all from the inside of the car), and the passenger airbag cover isnt flush with the dash top. (Lotus have agreed to fix this FOC at the next service even though the car is out of warranty)
In terms of the rads on the Turbo 996's these appear to be a weak pointm vulnerable to stones and many cars have to have them all replaced.
The only way really to be sure that you wont have bore scoring and IMS issues is probably to either buy a 997.2 or find a car with a Hartech rebuild.
Edited by blueg33 on Friday 2nd January 10:09
JapanRed said:
Thanks for the info Blueg. Strange you mention the Evora, I've got a test drive in one booked for tomorrow ?? What made you go for the Lotus in the end? And what are your thoughts of it so far? What's Lotus reliability like? The Toyota engine in the Evora is very reliable
When you say cash spending on rads, what exactly is the issue here? Porsche decided to not install front grills to prevent debris ingress. Over time the build-up of crud starts to corrode the rads.
And is there a preventative measure to combat IMS and bore scorching on the 997.1s? Hartech or equivalent full rebuild is the only real solution at £8-10k. Other measures: LT thermostat extra rad etc may also help.
When you say cash spending on rads, what exactly is the issue here? Porsche decided to not install front grills to prevent debris ingress. Over time the build-up of crud starts to corrode the rads.
And is there a preventative measure to combat IMS and bore scorching on the 997.1s? Hartech or equivalent full rebuild is the only real solution at £8-10k. Other measures: LT thermostat extra rad etc may also help.
I'm a big fan of both Lotus and Porsche, I currently own two Porkers and three Lotus.
A Lotus Evora with Ohlin TTx dampers is one of the best handling road cars I have ever driven only falling short of a McLaren 12c. In terms of reliability, I raced an Evora in the Barcelona 24 hour race, we had an alternator failure but other than that the car was faultless.
In terms of answering your question about the Porsche engines, the Porsche specialist I use describes the non turbo or GT3 engines in the 996/997 as a Taiwanese copy of a Porsche engine. I would go 996T, I have had two of these and they are just fantastic cars, I currently have a 997T but I think the 996t is a better car to drive, you can see what the market is saying as there is a relatively small gap in prices between 996t & 997t's with similar mileage.
The smart money is currently going into 964's, they have so much character, wonderful car.
A Lotus Evora with Ohlin TTx dampers is one of the best handling road cars I have ever driven only falling short of a McLaren 12c. In terms of reliability, I raced an Evora in the Barcelona 24 hour race, we had an alternator failure but other than that the car was faultless.
In terms of answering your question about the Porsche engines, the Porsche specialist I use describes the non turbo or GT3 engines in the 996/997 as a Taiwanese copy of a Porsche engine. I would go 996T, I have had two of these and they are just fantastic cars, I currently have a 997T but I think the 996t is a better car to drive, you can see what the market is saying as there is a relatively small gap in prices between 996t & 997t's with similar mileage.
The smart money is currently going into 964's, they have so much character, wonderful car.
JapanRed said:
I suppose that depends on percentages. If this only ever happened twice then it's not really an issue. Can you provide any more info on this as I've not heard of it before?
Thanks
I can only relay my personal experince and what I was told on message boards at the time (rennlist was the one I was on then) it happened to me and one more bloke in the uk,happened to about 3-4 americans who posted .You would have to ask porsche for figures but I really woyuldnt expect them to be forthcoming .Thanks
I ended up in court testifying over the issue ,a forensic engineer pointed out a fault in the design of the engine which in certain circumstances could cause a fire to start.The court uphel our complaint ,it was my insurers vs the garage who sold the car ,I believe the garage did not try to sue Porsche so they got away with it.
The radiators on turbos seen to come up in most discussions about costs but it really shouldn't put you off. I replaced mine fairly soon after I got the car, then put some mesh over the grills. They've lasted 5 years and almost 40k miles (and weren't really all that expensive to replace anyway), so it's hardly a major regular cost. You'll spend far more on tyres over the same period.
My turbo is generally very reliable - at a guess I'd say the servicing probably averages out somewhere around £1000 to £1500 a year over that period. Plus tyres.
My turbo is generally very reliable - at a guess I'd say the servicing probably averages out somewhere around £1000 to £1500 a year over that period. Plus tyres.
davek_964 said:
The radiators on turbos seen to come up in most discussions about costs but it really shouldn't put you off. I replaced mine fairly soon after I got the car, then put some mesh over the grills. They've lasted 5 years and almost 40k miles (and weren't really all that expensive to replace anyway), so it's hardly a major regular cost. You'll spend far more on tyres over the same period.
My turbo is generally very reliable - at a guess I'd say the servicing probably averages out somewhere around £1000 to £1500 a year over that period. Plus tyres.
Thanks for this. Would you recommend replacing the radiators as a preventative measure or just wait until it goes bang? Any idea of cost to replace? Many thanks. My turbo is generally very reliable - at a guess I'd say the servicing probably averages out somewhere around £1000 to £1500 a year over that period. Plus tyres.
Change them when you buy one, fit mesh grills.. Cost, DIY £500-600, Indy £900-1000 and OPC £1200-1300... An Indy did my GT3 ones all in (OPC parts and all new hoses) £975! (Mind you, that was 3 years ago)
996 turbo, remap, 6 pots and an exhaust.. Would make a great weekend toy. But go drive them all...
996 turbo, remap, 6 pots and an exhaust.. Would make a great weekend toy. But go drive them all...
I had the centre rad on my 2005 Turbo S fail last year, around 60k miles. At the time, the car was on all 5 original rads and condensers, as best we could tell, and they were all in good condition except the one that failed. I took the opportunity to have wire mesh fitted to the inside of the bumper; its invisible and should make the annual removal of leaves and small dead mammals much easier
Otherwise I was about to say the car has been very reliable, but it looks like the water pump bearing and seals have gone just this afternoon
Lovely expensive pink Porsche coolant is happily spraying out around the pump shaft, so that's another random £500 job. Otherwise, for a £100k car at 9 years old, I can't complain about the occasional 1k service bill and associated bits and bobs - it hasn't landed me a 10k engine rebuild the way my old Tuscan did, which is always a risk for the 996 and 997 Carreras.
My observation is that you can buy a 996 or 997 Carrera which is either newer, or cheaper, than a 996 Turbo, which would cover lots of wear and tear either way. What the saving probably won't cover is a full rebuild for IMS failure or bore scoring. A 996 turbo will be older than a 997, and will cost you in occasional age related bills like my water pump, suspension bushes or boost leaks, but it shouldn't land you with a massive 5 figure bill in one go.
Pete
Otherwise I was about to say the car has been very reliable, but it looks like the water pump bearing and seals have gone just this afternoon
Lovely expensive pink Porsche coolant is happily spraying out around the pump shaft, so that's another random £500 job. Otherwise, for a £100k car at 9 years old, I can't complain about the occasional 1k service bill and associated bits and bobs - it hasn't landed me a 10k engine rebuild the way my old Tuscan did, which is always a risk for the 996 and 997 Carreras.My observation is that you can buy a 996 or 997 Carrera which is either newer, or cheaper, than a 996 Turbo, which would cover lots of wear and tear either way. What the saving probably won't cover is a full rebuild for IMS failure or bore scoring. A 996 turbo will be older than a 997, and will cost you in occasional age related bills like my water pump, suspension bushes or boost leaks, but it shouldn't land you with a massive 5 figure bill in one go.
Pete
pete said:
I had the centre rad on my 2005 Turbo S fail last year, around 60k miles. At the time, the car was on all 5 original rads and condensers, as best we could tell, and they were all in good condition except the one that failed. I took the opportunity to have wire mesh fitted to the inside of the bumper; its invisible and should make the annual removal of leaves and small dead mammals much easier
Otherwise I was about to say the car has been very reliable, but it looks like the water pump bearing and seals have gone just this afternoon Lovely expensive pink Porsche coolant is happily spraying out around the pump shaft, so that's another random £500 job. Otherwise, for a £100k car at 9 years old, I can't complain about the occasional 1k service bill and associated bits and bobs - it hasn't landed me a 10k engine rebuild the way my old Tuscan did, which is always a risk for the 996 and 997 Carreras.
My observation is that you can buy a 996 or 997 Carrera which is either newer, or cheaper, than a 996 Turbo, which would cover lots of wear and tear either way. What the saving probably won't cover is a full rebuild for IMS failure or bore scoring. A 996 turbo will be older than a 997, and will cost you in occasional age related bills like my water pump, suspension bushes or boost leaks, but it shouldn't land you with a massive 5 figure bill in one go.
Pete
Thanks Pete that's very useful info. Just out of interest, how does your 996 Turbo compare to the Tuscan? What year did you have? I'm only asking because when I started looking for a weekend car the Tuscan was top of my list. I'd still have one if only for the noise, if it weren't for the fact Id constantly be worried about big repair bills. Otherwise I was about to say the car has been very reliable, but it looks like the water pump bearing and seals have gone just this afternoon
Lovely expensive pink Porsche coolant is happily spraying out around the pump shaft, so that's another random £500 job. Otherwise, for a £100k car at 9 years old, I can't complain about the occasional 1k service bill and associated bits and bobs - it hasn't landed me a 10k engine rebuild the way my old Tuscan did, which is always a risk for the 996 and 997 Carreras.My observation is that you can buy a 996 or 997 Carrera which is either newer, or cheaper, than a 996 Turbo, which would cover lots of wear and tear either way. What the saving probably won't cover is a full rebuild for IMS failure or bore scoring. A 996 turbo will be older than a 997, and will cost you in occasional age related bills like my water pump, suspension bushes or boost leaks, but it shouldn't land you with a massive 5 figure bill in one go.
Pete
The Tuscan was a vey different beast. Mine was a late mk1, September 2003, with a lovely high revving 3.6 engine, low final drive ratio, and most of the Tamora chassis upgrades. Over 6 years, it never actually broke down or let me down - you can see the costs in my profile. I spent a fair bit on upgrades to suspension and other bits and bobs, and eventually had the engine rebuilt as a 4.3 due to valve seat wear. It wasn't catastrophic, just a slow drop in power. Afterwards it was bulletproof, with 400 plus bhp and a 5 year warranty; it was also QUICK - 400bhp/tonne has that effect :-)
My main issue was one of changing lifestyle. Owning a TVR was like owning a demanding classic car, just one that was built recently. I spent a few hours every weekend on average keeping on top of minor niggles, trim, cosmetics, electrical quirks. I consoled myself that I was basically rebuilding the car better than new, but it wasn't going to work with a new baby at home.
By comparison, the 996 is less of an event to own and drive, but clearly far more competent and better engineered. It isn't
as quick, but *I* would be faster in almost any circumstance in the Porsche. However the Tuscan was fun at 5/10ths, whereas the 996 needs to be driven harder to feel alive. The Porsche doesn't need anything like the love and attention that the Tuscan needed, but when things do need fixing, they are usually more expensive, as you would expect given parts prices and the complexity of the Porsche compared to the TVR (which was a mixture of very common parts-bin bits, and ludicrously bespoke things like the engine and interior).
Ultimately you either want something well engineered, fast and fun like the Porsche, or you are able/happy to put up with the compromises that TVR ownership demands to drive something practically unique which stops traffic. As long as you understand that, and buy either one very carefully, I would recommend both in a heartbeat.
Pete
My main issue was one of changing lifestyle. Owning a TVR was like owning a demanding classic car, just one that was built recently. I spent a few hours every weekend on average keeping on top of minor niggles, trim, cosmetics, electrical quirks. I consoled myself that I was basically rebuilding the car better than new, but it wasn't going to work with a new baby at home.
By comparison, the 996 is less of an event to own and drive, but clearly far more competent and better engineered. It isn't
as quick, but *I* would be faster in almost any circumstance in the Porsche. However the Tuscan was fun at 5/10ths, whereas the 996 needs to be driven harder to feel alive. The Porsche doesn't need anything like the love and attention that the Tuscan needed, but when things do need fixing, they are usually more expensive, as you would expect given parts prices and the complexity of the Porsche compared to the TVR (which was a mixture of very common parts-bin bits, and ludicrously bespoke things like the engine and interior).
Ultimately you either want something well engineered, fast and fun like the Porsche, or you are able/happy to put up with the compromises that TVR ownership demands to drive something practically unique which stops traffic. As long as you understand that, and buy either one very carefully, I would recommend both in a heartbeat.
Pete
Owned my 996 Turbo for just over 2 years now. Costs have been relatively small so far. Tyres and servicing is all I have spent out on, and of course fuel. I was looking at similar machinery when choosing, and asked all the same questions. I think if you buy a decent, good condition car to start with, that's the best start, it's all about condition! The rads on mine are fine, and I haven't had to replace them yet, if I do, then it's around £1500 from an indie, but that's part of the ownership experience and can't be avoided. For the car you're getting it's well worth the money. Personally I wouldn't worry about them, but get the car inspected but a good specialist who will show you any issue's or bits that need replacing, or better still buy from a specialist. I'd have a small slush fund 3/4k available for jobs like his and keep it for the duration of ownership, may not be needed, but just incase. In truth they are the most bullet proof of the cars you mention, the engine very very strong, but it's a mechanical object and things will /do go wrong with all cars. Buy the best you can, have a slush fund and then forget about what if's and enjoy it!
I ran a 996T for a couple of years having discounted the non turbo variants of similar age/price principally on the Mezger engine point, but also on out and out performance.
As others have said, the rads can go, but it's not a big deal in the scheme of things. Four new tyres are likely to be a more frequent, and slightly more costly consumable for instance; the rear spoiler on mine was playing up a bit when I sold it and that's a not uncommon issue with a more expensive fix.
All that said, reliability was very good and running costs moderate, bearing in mind that it is a 100k car that (despite what the car will tell you) you will probably be well advised to service more frequently than 20k miles/2 years (that may not exactly be the variable servicing interval, but whatever it is was too long IMO).
The single thing that led me to sell is what has already been mentioned: it is some amazingly composed that you have to be doing mega (licence losing) speeds before you feel "on it". That, and the fact that the volume of other traffic around these days means you can end up feeling like you're riding a racehorse on a beach packed out with donkeys, all of whom are doing nothing more than getting in the way.
As others have said, the rads can go, but it's not a big deal in the scheme of things. Four new tyres are likely to be a more frequent, and slightly more costly consumable for instance; the rear spoiler on mine was playing up a bit when I sold it and that's a not uncommon issue with a more expensive fix.
All that said, reliability was very good and running costs moderate, bearing in mind that it is a 100k car that (despite what the car will tell you) you will probably be well advised to service more frequently than 20k miles/2 years (that may not exactly be the variable servicing interval, but whatever it is was too long IMO).
The single thing that led me to sell is what has already been mentioned: it is some amazingly composed that you have to be doing mega (licence losing) speeds before you feel "on it". That, and the fact that the volume of other traffic around these days means you can end up feeling like you're riding a racehorse on a beach packed out with donkeys, all of whom are doing nothing more than getting in the way.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff