A perceptably small risk ending up being life-changing...
Discussion
Inspired by the 'pointless drink / driving testing' thread....and there may well be no right or wrong answers to this as such...
I agree that drink / driving is out of order. Looking back on my 25-odd years of driving and riding experience, I have exceeded the speed limit on roads many times, on the occasions when I have felt it safe to do so. Two things have been the result of that over the years: firstly some totally fair-cop nickings, including points and fines...but then in contrast to that, I haven't had one single-vehicle accident that was my fault either, let alone caused any third party any damage or injury. But in all cases - I have never been over or anywhere near the drink drive limit. If I'm gonna speed or drive / ride in a spirited fashion - I always ensure that I am fresh, well-rested, and definitely free from anything at all which might cloud my judgement, or compromise my alertness and decision-making!
Anyway I digress. Following is a story of someone I know, and an incident they were involved in a few years ago. I'd like to invite comment please.
He was a young-ish lad at the time, early 20's. Worked at a motorbike shop I used to frequently visit, and he was heavily involved in racing and track days, both cars and bikes. Had so far managed to avoid a single nicking on the road since passing his test too - always had a clean licence. I would say that, having mixed with him both on the road and on track days - his 'spatial awareness and roadcraft' (if you might label such a thing) was possibly above that of the average driver, due to his experience, even at his young age. I'm not saying he was some kind of 'God or hero' - but I am sure you, as PH'ers, know what I mean...
He was driving home from a party one night. He was driving through a residential road close to his home, with a 40mph limit. Suddenly a drunk pedestrian stumbled out into his path, from behind a parked van, in a long line of parked cars. My friend hit the pedestrian, and the pedestrian died.
Police arrived. Huge investigation took place by the Accident Investigation team. They concluded that my friend was travelling below the posted 40mph limit. They concluded that his driving was completely ordinary, totally bereft of carelessness or dangerousness. His car was in perfect condition, and all his documents were up to date. They concluded that the pedestrian appeared in front of his car at a point where he had less than five feet to impact, and that there wasn't a driver alive who could have braked, or indeed avoided colliding with, the pedestrian and hence avoided anything but a fatal outcome.
Ordinarily, any other driver would have been totally absolved of blame in any way, and left to carry on with their life - albeit with the sense and memory of being party to a fatal accident.
My friend, however, was over the drink-drive limit. If memory serves me correct, he blew just under double the limit - 60-odd mg on the evidential machine at the Police Station, the limit being 35.
Despite doing nothing wrong 'driving wise' in this horrendous incident, the fact of the matter is that he was over the prescribed limit. He was sent to court and absolutely hammered. He got jail time.
You might say 'good' - but this is a previously hard-working young lad of good character, with an up-until-now blemish-free record. He made a silly error of judgement and was unlucky enough to be party to a horrible incident. However, me and all his friends and family were very shocked at the prison verdict - after all, don't forget that the Accident Investigation Team concluded that the fact that he was over the limit was not an aggravating factor in the death of the pedestrian...
He appealed his sentence whilst inside, and managed to secure a reduction which saw him out again after a few months, on condition that he attended a lengthy driving course and 'alcoholic rehabilitation.'
The fact remains that in his early 20's, he now has a prison sentence on his record. His employers were fine and took him back fortunately - but that record will always be there for him, possibly spoiling many aspects of his adult life - as well as the memory of someone dying in front of him, for the rest of his life.
Was that a fair sentence, or not? What would you have done? Your thoughts please...
I agree that drink / driving is out of order. Looking back on my 25-odd years of driving and riding experience, I have exceeded the speed limit on roads many times, on the occasions when I have felt it safe to do so. Two things have been the result of that over the years: firstly some totally fair-cop nickings, including points and fines...but then in contrast to that, I haven't had one single-vehicle accident that was my fault either, let alone caused any third party any damage or injury. But in all cases - I have never been over or anywhere near the drink drive limit. If I'm gonna speed or drive / ride in a spirited fashion - I always ensure that I am fresh, well-rested, and definitely free from anything at all which might cloud my judgement, or compromise my alertness and decision-making!
Anyway I digress. Following is a story of someone I know, and an incident they were involved in a few years ago. I'd like to invite comment please.
He was a young-ish lad at the time, early 20's. Worked at a motorbike shop I used to frequently visit, and he was heavily involved in racing and track days, both cars and bikes. Had so far managed to avoid a single nicking on the road since passing his test too - always had a clean licence. I would say that, having mixed with him both on the road and on track days - his 'spatial awareness and roadcraft' (if you might label such a thing) was possibly above that of the average driver, due to his experience, even at his young age. I'm not saying he was some kind of 'God or hero' - but I am sure you, as PH'ers, know what I mean...
He was driving home from a party one night. He was driving through a residential road close to his home, with a 40mph limit. Suddenly a drunk pedestrian stumbled out into his path, from behind a parked van, in a long line of parked cars. My friend hit the pedestrian, and the pedestrian died.
Police arrived. Huge investigation took place by the Accident Investigation team. They concluded that my friend was travelling below the posted 40mph limit. They concluded that his driving was completely ordinary, totally bereft of carelessness or dangerousness. His car was in perfect condition, and all his documents were up to date. They concluded that the pedestrian appeared in front of his car at a point where he had less than five feet to impact, and that there wasn't a driver alive who could have braked, or indeed avoided colliding with, the pedestrian and hence avoided anything but a fatal outcome.
Ordinarily, any other driver would have been totally absolved of blame in any way, and left to carry on with their life - albeit with the sense and memory of being party to a fatal accident.
My friend, however, was over the drink-drive limit. If memory serves me correct, he blew just under double the limit - 60-odd mg on the evidential machine at the Police Station, the limit being 35.
Despite doing nothing wrong 'driving wise' in this horrendous incident, the fact of the matter is that he was over the prescribed limit. He was sent to court and absolutely hammered. He got jail time.
You might say 'good' - but this is a previously hard-working young lad of good character, with an up-until-now blemish-free record. He made a silly error of judgement and was unlucky enough to be party to a horrible incident. However, me and all his friends and family were very shocked at the prison verdict - after all, don't forget that the Accident Investigation Team concluded that the fact that he was over the limit was not an aggravating factor in the death of the pedestrian...
He appealed his sentence whilst inside, and managed to secure a reduction which saw him out again after a few months, on condition that he attended a lengthy driving course and 'alcoholic rehabilitation.'
The fact remains that in his early 20's, he now has a prison sentence on his record. His employers were fine and took him back fortunately - but that record will always be there for him, possibly spoiling many aspects of his adult life - as well as the memory of someone dying in front of him, for the rest of his life.
Was that a fair sentence, or not? What would you have done? Your thoughts please...
I disagree with the title, he knew the risk he was taking when he put the keys in the ignition. Call a cab, get a lift, walk, take a bus etc.
He might have had a carefree trip home, could have been much worse. The end result wasn't great.
IF he was under the limit, could he have avoided him, who knows?
Drink driving cannot be placed in the same bracket as speeding.
Personally I have no sympathy.
He might have had a carefree trip home, could have been much worse. The end result wasn't great.
IF he was under the limit, could he have avoided him, who knows?
Drink driving cannot be placed in the same bracket as speeding.
Personally I have no sympathy.
different people handle drink differently.
different people handle speed differently.
different people handle space differently.
etc etc
but for the sake of the greater good we do need to put some boundaries in place.
And let's be honest, we all know about the alcohol boundary.
so no, guilty.
btw, i'm no angel myself....
different people handle speed differently.
different people handle space differently.
etc etc
but for the sake of the greater good we do need to put some boundaries in place.
And let's be honest, we all know about the alcohol boundary.
so no, guilty.
btw, i'm no angel myself....
bigdom said:
IF he was under the limit, could he have avoided him, who knows?
My interpretation of the story was that there was nothing that could have been done to avoid the accident? It sounds as though there was simply not enough time to react at all to the pedestrian regardless of whether the driver was stone cold sober or was over the limit. I'm generally not a fan of drink drivers but in the context of this story it would be impossible not to feel that your friend got short changed.
bigdom said:
IF he was under the limit, could he have avoided him, who knows?
Did you read the OP properly? It clearly states that the accident investigation team decided conclusively that the drivers alcohol level was not a factor in the accident.That is of course assuming that everything in the OP is correct and true.
Whenever I drink I'm conscious of exactly the scenario you describe - if someone rear ends me and I routinely get breathalysed I will lose my license and I can imagine the self-righteous other driver telling their friends they had an accident with a drink driver which absolves them of any blame (you know how people are)..
For this reason as well as one of personal responsibility I don't drink drive. Your acquaintance knew that being breathalysed would be a routine response to any accident.
The above sounds judgemental and pious. It's not meant to be and I sympathyse with the story but it is a clear lesson not to drink drive.
For this reason as well as one of personal responsibility I don't drink drive. Your acquaintance knew that being breathalysed would be a routine response to any accident.
The above sounds judgemental and pious. It's not meant to be and I sympathyse with the story but it is a clear lesson not to drink drive.
Chicane-UK said:
bigdom said:
IF he was under the limit, could he have avoided him, who knows?
My interpretation of the story was that there was nothing that could have been done to avoid the accident? It sounds as though there was simply not enough time to react at all to the pedestrian regardless of whether the driver was stone cold sober or was over the limit. I'm generally not a fan of drink drivers but in the context of this story it would be impossible not to feel that your friend got short changed.
Whilst the numbers are well down on historic figures, Drink drivers are involved in 4% of recorded accidents and account for 17% of recorded road deaths.
He would have known he was being a
Edited by bigdom on Friday 2nd January 22:51
The thing about the drink driving is though, he was almost twice the limit. It may not have had an effect on that accident, but if the guy had not walked out from behind the van but from somewhere more visible it would have made a diffrence. Ultimately he was over the limit. He made the choice to drive over the limit. Whilst it may be that no driver could have avoided it, perhaps if he had not been over the limit he may have reacted faster and the guy could have been injured rather than killed. Maybe not, but we will never know.
jamesc_1729 said:
Whenever I drink I'm conscious of exactly the scenario you describe - if someone rear ends me and I routinely get breathalysed I will lose my license and I can imagine the self-righteous other driver telling their friends they had an accident with a drink driver which absolves them of any blame (you know how people are)..
For this reason as well as one of personal responsibility I don't drink drive. Your acquaintance knew that being breathalysed would be a routine response to any accident.
The above sounds judgemental and pious. It's not meant to be and I sympathyse with the story but it is a clear lesson not to drink drive.
I imagine any responsible driver would take this approach?For this reason as well as one of personal responsibility I don't drink drive. Your acquaintance knew that being breathalysed would be a routine response to any accident.
The above sounds judgemental and pious. It's not meant to be and I sympathyse with the story but it is a clear lesson not to drink drive.
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Despite doing nothing wrong 'driving wise' in this horrendous incident, the fact of the matter is that he was over the prescribed limit. He was sent to court and absolutely hammered. He got jail time.
Well, to point out the obvious, he did do something wrong driving-wise. He drove over the limit.If he hadn't hit anyone, but had been caught by a random check, something would have happened to him. Probably not jail, I admit, but probably 'life changing' nonetheless.
Therefore if you're considering whether he was harshly treated, you can only look at the difference between his punishment and a typical one for DD.
OP. I admire you for daring to raise this. I suspect you will get slated but most thinking people will recognise and identify with the points you've raised.
The sentence is what it is. It's not fair nor reasonable but we've been brainwashed into believing that driving over the DD limit is on par or worse than raping your neighbours 3 year old daughter.
The social reasons for this are complex. I can only feel sorry for all involved.
The sentence is what it is. It's not fair nor reasonable but we've been brainwashed into believing that driving over the DD limit is on par or worse than raping your neighbours 3 year old daughter.
The social reasons for this are complex. I can only feel sorry for all involved.
One of my mates has a totally paralysed left arm as a result of a completely pissed bloke running from a pub right out into the road in front of his motorbike. Speed wasn't great, but nerves and tendons damaged.
Of course peds arent insured, and said ped was a complete waster - my mate lost everything; there was nothing to sue for. Ended up moving back in with his parents.
Fair makes me sick.
Of course peds arent insured, and said ped was a complete waster - my mate lost everything; there was nothing to sue for. Ended up moving back in with his parents.
Fair makes me sick.
For several years after I passed my test, there were no alcohol tests or limits. We used to pub crawl in the countryside up to five times a week, six-ish pints, sometimes more, and drive home with gusto.
As I remember it, nobody died.
Funny old world, isn't it?
Cue much PH breast beating, wailing, waving of hands and calls to burn the heretic writer of this post...
PS...my bunker's locked and I'm off to bed for an early start on the morn', lads, so go home and have a drinky.
As I remember it, nobody died.
Funny old world, isn't it?
Cue much PH breast beating, wailing, waving of hands and calls to burn the heretic writer of this post...
PS...my bunker's locked and I'm off to bed for an early start on the morn', lads, so go home and have a drinky.
Pistom said:
The sentence is what it is. It's not fair nor reasonable but we've been brainwashed into believing that driving over the DD limit is on par or worse than raping your neighbours 3 year old daughter.
Who has? Are you telling us that you think that?As for fair/reasonable, I'm left unsure how you feel about DD.
I think anybody with a modicum of sense realises that the CPS & Judges are trying to influence behaviour by pressing for and imposing custodial sentences on drunk people in control of a vehicle that kills somebody.
They've been doing this for some time.
The OP's acquaintance was unquestionably drunk.
So it comes as no surprise that he went to prison.
I like the fact that the CPS & Judges are trying to influence behaviour by pressing for and imposing custodial sentences on drunk people in control of a vehicle that kills somebody.
Hopefully other people might get the message and when they're over the limit stagger home, take a taxi or a bus.
They've been doing this for some time.
The OP's acquaintance was unquestionably drunk.
So it comes as no surprise that he went to prison.
I like the fact that the CPS & Judges are trying to influence behaviour by pressing for and imposing custodial sentences on drunk people in control of a vehicle that kills somebody.
Hopefully other people might get the message and when they're over the limit stagger home, take a taxi or a bus.
mybrainhurts said:
For several years after I passed my test, there were no alcohol tests or limits. We used to pub crawl in the countryside up to five times a week, six-ish pints, sometimes more, and drive home with gusto.
As I remember it, nobody died.
I'm too young to be in the same position, but my FiL has told me stories of driving home from the pub after rugby nights, using the grass verge to keep him in a straight line As I remember it, nobody died.
As for the OP, he deserved to be punished as a chap caught twice over the limit, not a chap who knocked over and killed someone whilst twice over the limit....
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