Requiring a sick note for any sick leave - the law

[zeduffman]

Hi all, hope someone can shed some light.

I work in the NHS and the sickness policy in the Trust I work in has always been (in the two years I've worked there) that if you are off sick, you self certificate for the first five days, and then you need a doctor's sick note for any sick leave longer than this.

This regularly changes slightly over holiday periods (summer, xmas, half term) so that any sick leave requires a sick note, obviously to reduce the number of people who off sick unnecessarily, which most agree is a good policy to have, given that the maximum number of people will be on annual leave anyway and having more go off 'sick' will start closing down services/cancelling appointments in the department.

Last week however we all received an email from HR which said that this policy of requiring a sick note for any sickness will be extended indefinitely after the xmas holiday. Now there are a number of obvious issues with this:

- Many GPs will not provide a sick note unless you've been sick for a week
- It takes a long time to get a GP appointment
- You are clogging up a system that is already over capacity
- In turn this will increase attendances in A&E even more as people don't want to wait very long to see their GP about certain things
- If you've been struck down with Norovirus or something else particularly nasty that you've caught from work, you're told to stay away from GPs and the last thing you want to be worried about is getting your sick note.
- If you wait until you are okay again to see your GP, you look like a bit of an idiot taking up an appointment slot and convincing your doctor that you need a sick note written up retrospectively.

Also, the Trust claims to have agreed this with local GPs, but I live 30 miles away from the hospital in another county so I very much doubt my GP will be one of those they have contacted.

My question is what legal ramifications are involved in this? Is it legal to require a sick note for any sickness period, regardless of length? Is there some vague policy which stipulates that this can be implemented in extenuating circumstances (providing an emergency service)? Or is the whole thing a load of bull that HR are hoping will go uncontested?

My colleagues and I are not well clued up on the law in this area so if anyone could be of any assistance on either side of the fence it would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by zeduffman on Tuesday 6th January 20:26

[Gargamel]

Do your HR team require a note from the employee regarding sickness or are they actually asking for a note signed by a medical professional for every single sickness absence?

[zeduffman]

Gargamel said:

Do your HR team require a note from the employee regarding sickness or are they actually asking for a note signed by a medical professional for every single sickness absence?

They require a sick note from the GP. Self certification is not possible anymore. Here is the email in full

The sickness absence procedure that has been in place since Saturday 20th December is being extended. Therefore until further notice any member of staff who starts a period of sickness absence will be required to provide a Fit Note or a Sickness Certificate, obtainable from their GP. The management team appreciate that staff are working flexibly to ensure that short notice sickness is covered and hope that this action will ensure that staff working during this period are supported and will minimise the requirement for staff to move areas or work additional hours at short notice.

If a GP charges for this service then a receipt should be obtained and this should be supplied to your line manager or Supervisor with a copy of the certificate. The usual cost of a certificate is £15.00. Any member of staff who does not follow the notification procedure or provide a Fit Note or Sickness certificate will have their Occupational Sick pay withheld.

Line managers or Supervisors should send receipts to the Human Resources Department at <redacted>, marking the envelope 'Staff Sickness Certificate Receipt'. The cost of the certificate will be reimbursed to the staff member through the payroll.

This temporary change to sickness certification was previously discussed by Staff Side Representatives on 16th October however they were not able to support or agree to this temporary change to sickness certification. The Trust acknowledges the staff side position, however the requirement for certificates during previous periods of school holiday and Bank Holiday periods has resulted in a reduction in absence due to sickness and it is for this reason that management require staff to follow the sickness certification requirements during the above period.

[CorradoTDI]

I thought the law says you can self certify for 7 days!

[Gargamel]

Tough one this, I note they staffrepresentativehaven't agreed, perhaps it is them you should approach, I imagine they will have access to legal advice.

It states until further notice, I wonder if this is a further trial to see if it is workable.

My own take on it would be, sick days go day measurably when this daily report is required, and have done so over critical holiday periods for sometime. So extend the policy and watch sick days over the year reduce. All make sense.

But if you as an individual tell them that you couldn't get an appointment at the GP on the day, you are back now, will they make a big thing of it? You would normally expect them not to be too worried, but this is the public sector, so who knows.

[dave_s13]

Gargamel said:

Tough one this, I note they staffrepresentativehaven't agreed, perhaps it is them you should approach, I imagine they will have access to legal advice.

It states until further notice, I wonder if this is a further trial to see if it is workable.

My own take on it would be, sick days go day measurably when this daily report is required, and have done so over critical holiday periods for sometime. So extend the policy and watch sick days over the year reduce. All make sense.

But if you as an individual tell them that you couldn't get an appointment at the GP on the day, you are back now, will they make a big thing of it? You would normally expect them not to be too worried, but this is the public sector, so who knows.

They would likely dock the days pay down to the stat pay rate or something.

I work for the NHS. This stinks as it will just mean if you're off sick, rather than taking a couple of three days off, or whatever, folk will be inclined to wing it until they can at least get a doctors note.

[Pit Pony]

When I worked in a manufacturing company employing 80% women, they had a real sickness issue on the weeks before and after a factory shutdown. So they had a policy, of requiring a sick note if you had even 1/2 a day in the 7 days either side of a holiday. Most doctors would charge, and they would refund the cost. And with other changes they cut sickness from 8% to 2% average, but in those weeks from 15% to 2%.

I was ill and sent home on the 2nd Jan, and then over the weekend, we had the doctor visit because both kids were ill, and whilst she was with us (anyone remember the NHS when doctors came to you ?) I asked if I could have a sick note for the 1/2 day, and explained that my company would pay. Sod that she said.....and wrote me a note for another week off, saying that I was in no fit state to return to work whilst wife and kids needed me at home. I remember the return to work interview where I was told that I'd let the other members of my team down, by being ill.

[mildmannered]

How many times have you been sick this last two years?

[eliot]

My company had a problem with sickness, especially on Monday and Fridays. They said that every member of staff had to personally telephone one of the directors of the company to explain why they wouldn't be in, when they are expected back and how they could cover their job. Emailing, Texing and getting your partner to call in were strictly forbidden.
Unsuprisingly absence dropped significantly after that.

[Steve H]

Pit Pony said:

I was ill and sent home on the 2nd Jan, and then over the weekend, we had the doctor visit because both kids were ill, and whilst she was with us (anyone remember the NHS when doctors came to you ?) I asked if I could have a sick note for the 1/2 day, and explained that my company would pay. Sod that she said.....and wrote me a note for another week off, saying that I was in no fit state to return to work whilst wife and kids needed me at home. I remember the return to work interview where I was told that I'd let the other members of my team down, by being ill.

From how you describe that, you weren't ill for most of the time. Being off work to look after your family isn't being off ill, it's short-notice holiday time.


Sick time would be cut by 90% if sick pay didn't exist.

[Countdown]

Steve H said:

Sick time would be cut by 90% if sick pay didn't exist.

Used to work for a firm of electrical contractors. Sickness absence dropped massively when sick pay was reduced from full pay to statutory minimum (I.e. no pay for first 3 days and only SSP from Day 4 onwards)

OP - as far as I remember the sicknote requirement is an "internal" policy so your employer is able to change it as they want.

[AB]

Steve H said:

Sick time would be cut by 90% if sick pay didn't exist.

Possibly.

However, I wouldn't want my staff forced to come in with flu just because they were worried about losing a days pay. Recipe for disaster if they spread it around the office.

I suppose that it's easier with a small company, where everyone knows the MD/line manager etc and won't want to take the piss.

NHS a different matter I suppose.

[zeduffman]

mildmannered said:

How many times have you been sick this last two years?

Twice. It's not an issue for me personally (at least I hope it won't be) but it's a crappy way of treating staff when it's only a minority that abuse the system.

[Steve H]

I take your point on that but the examples above of sickness being cut by 80% suggest that it is anything but a minority.

[SpeckledJim]

zeduffman said:

mildmannered said:

How many times have you been sick this last two years?

Twice. It's not an issue for me personally (at least I hope it won't be) but it's a crappy way of treating staff when it's only a minority that abuse the system.

Sickness rates in big / state-funded offices versus that in small / privately funded offices would indicate that anyone paid by their actual boss is hugely less likely to go off sick.

Those paid by the treasury (with some exceptions) are MILES more likely to take the piss.

And every little innovation like mandatory return-to-work interviews and basic stat pay has a huge positive effect on attendance.

That simply wouldn't happen if 'off sick' actually really meant 'off sick'.

[Pit Pony]

Steve H said:

Pit Pony said:

I was ill and sent home on the 2nd Jan, and then over the weekend, we had the doctor visit because both kids were ill, and whilst she was with us (anyone remember the NHS when doctors came to you ?) I asked if I could have a sick note for the 1/2 day, and explained that my company would pay. Sod that she said.....and wrote me a note for another week off, saying that I was in no fit state to return to work whilst wife and kids needed me at home. I remember the return to work interview where I was told that I'd let the other members of my team down, by being ill.

From how you describe that, you weren't ill for most of the time. Being off work to look after your family isn't being off ill, it's short-notice holiday time.


Sick time would be cut by 90% if sick pay didn't exist.

Indeed. The Doctor could have charged me for a private sick note, for the half day that I'd missed, which I'd have claimed back, but decided that she couldn't be arsed with that, and that I needed more rest and recuperation. I did not encourage her, because I felt I should go to work. (At that point I'd missed zero days in 7 years through illness)

Interestingly, my attitude has changed. My wife now suffers from Chronic Fatigue and has done since 2006.
Some people call it Yuppie Flu and others (usually Consultants with an ME specialism) call it POST VIRAL Chronic Fatigue.
The usual cause is that the sufferer usually has a strong work ethic, and when they are ill, they go back to work too soon, and quickly become ill again, because they didn't give their body time to recover.

[mildmannered]

zeduffman said:

mildmannered said:

How many times have you been sick this last two years?

Twice. It's not an issue for me personally (at least I hope it won't be) but it's a crappy way of treating staff when it's only a minority that abuse the system.

Totally agree, and the last thing you need - when you are genuinely unwell is to have to get an appointment at the doctors. But, it will be a deterrent to repeat offenders as it will be a massive encumberance, whereas you will only be affected once a year (on average).

If you have to attend the doctors, you may as well go to work and be sent home!

But I should imagine that the public sector suffers quite considerably over this issue. The real issue should be that we should make it easier for employers to ditch crap staff, would be a huge benefit to the UK's economy.

[zeduffman]

SpeckledJim said:

Sickness rates in big / state-funded offices versus that in small / privately funded offices would indicate that anyone paid by their actual boss is hugely less likely to go off sick.

Those paid by the treasury (with some exceptions) are MILES more likely to take the piss.

And every little innovation like mandatory return-to-work interviews and basic stat pay has a huge positive effect on attendance.

That simply wouldn't happen if 'off sick' actually really meant 'off sick'.

The trouble with working in clinical is that you might well consider yourself okay to come into work, but if you come in and spread it to your colleagues, and then you all spread it onto patients, in our department that's a couple of thousand people per week you're exposing to infection. If they're already immunocompromised then chances are you're going to end up with several extra code blues.

The other problem is if you are sick with vomiting or diarrhoea, you explicitly can not return to work until you have been asymptomatic for 48 hours. With the amount or D&V that floats around hospitals naturally, that in itself will skew the sickness levels.

Add onto that we've had a couple of confirmed cases of swine flu which weren't diagnosed until almost everyone working in A&E had been exposed to it and you can see where problems with strict sickness policies in healthcare come in.

We've had an email go out today saying the policy is finishing at the end of Monday, but could be reintroduced if the hospital remains under pressure for beds. We'll watch this space then.

Edited by zeduffman on Thursday 8th January 13:53

Edited by zeduffman on Thursday 8th January 13:55

[SpeckledJim]

zeduffman said:

SpeckledJim said:

Sickness rates in big / state-funded offices versus that in small / privately funded offices would indicate that anyone paid by their actual boss is hugely less likely to go off sick.

Those paid by the treasury (with some exceptions) are MILES more likely to take the piss.

And every little innovation like mandatory return-to-work interviews and basic stat pay has a huge positive effect on attendance.

That simply wouldn't happen if 'off sick' actually really meant 'off sick'.

The trouble with working in clinical is that you might well consider yourself okay to come into work, but if you come in and spread it to your colleagues, and then you all spread it onto patients, in our department that's a couple of thousand people per week you're exposing to infection. If they're already immunocompromised then chances are you're going to end up with several extra code blues.

The other problem is if you are sick with vomiting or diarrhoea, you explicitly can not return to work until you have been asymptomatic for 48 hours. With the amount or D&V that floats around hospitals naturally, that in itself will skew the sickness levels.

Add onto that we've had a couple of confirmed cases of swine flu which weren't diagnosed until almost everyone working in A&E had been exposed to it and you can see where problems with strict sickness policies in healthcare come in.

We've had an email go out today saying the policy is finishing at the end of Monday, but could be reintroduced if the hospital remains under pressure for beds. We'll watch this space then.

Can't argue with any of that. The 'customer-facing' end of the NHS is clearly a different case.

I was more generally venting about the council!