Engine upgrade options
Discussion
OK, so my engine is out and I probably need the top ends sorted - new top hat liners, piston rings, etc. Air getting into coolant at high pressure, so likely cylinder sleeves or, possibly, cracked (hope not).
Question is, what else do I do whilst it is out? I don't really understand what the various options are but if I'm paying a reasonable amount already, what else is possible - I see the Power and V8D websites offer upgrades but I'm not sure I see the need to stretch to £10k, really.
I drive the car on the road, in good conditions, and do not want anything like SC/TC, Nitrous, etc. I would prefer to keep the engine and car somewhat original, so don't want megasquirt, remapping, etc.
What should I consider doing to get the most out of the engine? Porting the heads seems popular, for example?
Thanks,
Rich
Question is, what else do I do whilst it is out? I don't really understand what the various options are but if I'm paying a reasonable amount already, what else is possible - I see the Power and V8D websites offer upgrades but I'm not sure I see the need to stretch to £10k, really.
I drive the car on the road, in good conditions, and do not want anything like SC/TC, Nitrous, etc. I would prefer to keep the engine and car somewhat original, so don't want megasquirt, remapping, etc.
What should I consider doing to get the most out of the engine? Porting the heads seems popular, for example?
Thanks,
Rich
Rich, you've got what is often regarded as the best engine to start with (but then I'm biased) as the 450 almost certainly has a cross bolted block which provides more strength to the bottom end. There are many options available but would suggest having a chat with V8 Developments about what you want to achieve and what your budget is.
I would not dismiss SC/TC on the basis of everyday use as I do not believe either to be an interference, I've supercharged my 450, kept the Lucas 14CUX and original distributor etc. and it remains very usable but may have lost a couple of mpg. All this was done at home, by me (an enthusiastic amateur) with a reasonable tool kit, some patience and spare time.
As you are already going to be spending on the top end and if you want to stay naturally aspirated then you might want to consider hotter cam, slightly bigger injectors, gas flowed & ported heads, larger valves etc. If you don't already have smooth bore induction hoses then I would suggest the ACT kit together with larger trumpet base, shortened & flared trumpets, larger AFM etc, etc. All this should be part of the discussion with V8D, however they are not the only engine builders for these motors, you could also try John Eales for a comparative view. Also worth having a chat with Peter (Phazed on here) as he has 100 times more knowledge than me, and has probably tried everything that you are considering already, he'll be along soon more than likely in any case.
I didn't look at your location on your profile but if you're anywhere near mid Northants you're more than welcome to pop round for a look, chat & cuppa.
I would not dismiss SC/TC on the basis of everyday use as I do not believe either to be an interference, I've supercharged my 450, kept the Lucas 14CUX and original distributor etc. and it remains very usable but may have lost a couple of mpg. All this was done at home, by me (an enthusiastic amateur) with a reasonable tool kit, some patience and spare time.
As you are already going to be spending on the top end and if you want to stay naturally aspirated then you might want to consider hotter cam, slightly bigger injectors, gas flowed & ported heads, larger valves etc. If you don't already have smooth bore induction hoses then I would suggest the ACT kit together with larger trumpet base, shortened & flared trumpets, larger AFM etc, etc. All this should be part of the discussion with V8D, however they are not the only engine builders for these motors, you could also try John Eales for a comparative view. Also worth having a chat with Peter (Phazed on here) as he has 100 times more knowledge than me, and has probably tried everything that you are considering already, he'll be along soon more than likely in any case.
I didn't look at your location on your profile but if you're anywhere near mid Northants you're more than welcome to pop round for a look, chat & cuppa.
There are a fair few experienced engine builders etc that have said x-bolting isn't all it is cracked up to be. Engine balancing is more important. Of course, I'm no expert, but do trust some of the people I've spoken too.
If your cylinder heads are good, why don't you purchase a pre-assembled re-engineered 4.6 block from somewhere like Turner Engineering and then bolt on your heads and other working ancillaries. It would save you a small fortune. I'm just using Turner's as an example, but there are more options than spending £7-9k for an engine, unless you have money to burn of course. There's also a decent looking 5.0l on Ebay at the moment, that belonged to Jonny Z's Chimaera. A cam from V8D wouldn't cost too much either.
Just an alternative opinion of course
If your cylinder heads are good, why don't you purchase a pre-assembled re-engineered 4.6 block from somewhere like Turner Engineering and then bolt on your heads and other working ancillaries. It would save you a small fortune. I'm just using Turner's as an example, but there are more options than spending £7-9k for an engine, unless you have money to burn of course. There's also a decent looking 5.0l on Ebay at the moment, that belonged to Jonny Z's Chimaera. A cam from V8D wouldn't cost too much either.
Just an alternative opinion of course
The answer depends on your use of the car. Road only, or track etc.
If it is honestly as you say, then the simple answer is to put it back together as it is, just sorted properly so it doesn't break again in the remainder of your ownership. It will have more than enough power for anything you can sensibly do on the public road.
If you hanker after more power or torque for other reasons, then there are all sorts of options. But tell those you ask clearly what you want from the car and you stand a better chance of getting it. And beware of spending £1,000s on things like porting or bigger heads - you won't really notice a 20 bhp change and will wonder why you spent all that money.
I see you are Cambridge based. Richard is in the area regularly, as am I. I am there on Thursday this week all day, and next Monday, so if you just want a chat about your options let me know and we can meet up. Richard has supercharged his 450, I changed my 400 for a V8D 500.
If it is honestly as you say, then the simple answer is to put it back together as it is, just sorted properly so it doesn't break again in the remainder of your ownership. It will have more than enough power for anything you can sensibly do on the public road.
If you hanker after more power or torque for other reasons, then there are all sorts of options. But tell those you ask clearly what you want from the car and you stand a better chance of getting it. And beware of spending £1,000s on things like porting or bigger heads - you won't really notice a 20 bhp change and will wonder why you spent all that money.
I see you are Cambridge based. Richard is in the area regularly, as am I. I am there on Thursday this week all day, and next Monday, so if you just want a chat about your options let me know and we can meet up. Richard has supercharged his 450, I changed my 400 for a V8D 500.
QBee,
Many thanks of the offer. Unfortunately thursdays and mondays are both busy days for me.
My thinking on this is simply that if half the work of an upgrade is being done already, is there something else I should be considering whilst the engine is out and in bits? I do not, apparently, need a whole rebuild but simply doing the liners, skimming the heads, piston rings etc is going to start at £1000 - so for a bit more, would it be worth going big valve, porting etc? If its not really going to change my (exclusive) road use then I see no reason to empty Mrs P's kitchen fund. More power, torque etc is always fun (who wouldn't want a DBS, for example) but not if its going to cost the earth for just a little bit more power.
I like the romantic, unlikely notion that an original engine layout might become a collectors car in a decade or three, so don't really want to mess too much with the basic premise of the engine - but optimising the original is OK in my book.
Rich
Many thanks of the offer. Unfortunately thursdays and mondays are both busy days for me.
My thinking on this is simply that if half the work of an upgrade is being done already, is there something else I should be considering whilst the engine is out and in bits? I do not, apparently, need a whole rebuild but simply doing the liners, skimming the heads, piston rings etc is going to start at £1000 - so for a bit more, would it be worth going big valve, porting etc? If its not really going to change my (exclusive) road use then I see no reason to empty Mrs P's kitchen fund. More power, torque etc is always fun (who wouldn't want a DBS, for example) but not if its going to cost the earth for just a little bit more power.
I like the romantic, unlikely notion that an original engine layout might become a collectors car in a decade or three, so don't really want to mess too much with the basic premise of the engine - but optimising the original is OK in my book.
Rich
This will give you a good idea of costs and options. I'm sure there are cheaper places around. Somebody on here will know a few places no doubt.
http://turner-engineering.co.uk/html/V8enginesrema...
Chesman has been recommended by a few as well:
http://www.chesmanengineering.co.uk
http://turner-engineering.co.uk/html/V8enginesrema...
Chesman has been recommended by a few as well:
http://www.chesmanengineering.co.uk
Have a chat with V8Dthey will sort you out.
Stage 3 heads, mc1 cam, lightened & balanced flywheel, mark Addams chip, decatt, s/s manifolds and exhaust., shortened carbon trumpets
Just some of the things I had done there on my rebuild 10 years ago
Drivable in rush hour traffic, goes like a rocket, sounds like a thunderstorm
Stage 3 heads, mc1 cam, lightened & balanced flywheel, mark Addams chip, decatt, s/s manifolds and exhaust., shortened carbon trumpets
Just some of the things I had done there on my rebuild 10 years ago
Drivable in rush hour traffic, goes like a rocket, sounds like a thunderstorm
rickprice said:
QBee,
Many thanks of the offer. Unfortunately thursdays and mondays are both busy days for me.
My thinking on this is simply that if half the work of an upgrade is being done already, is there something else I should be considering whilst the engine is out and in bits? I do not, apparently, need a whole rebuild but simply doing the liners, skimming the heads, piston rings etc is going to start at £1000 - so for a bit more, would it be worth going big valve, porting etc? If its not really going to change my (exclusive) road use then I see no reason to empty Mrs P's kitchen fund. More power, torque etc is always fun (who wouldn't want a DBS, for example) but not if its going to cost the earth for just a little bit more power.
I like the romantic, unlikely notion that an original engine layout might become a collectors car in a decade or three, so don't really want to mess too much with the basic premise of the engine - but optimising the original is OK in my book.
Rich
A man after me own heart Many thanks of the offer. Unfortunately thursdays and mondays are both busy days for me.
My thinking on this is simply that if half the work of an upgrade is being done already, is there something else I should be considering whilst the engine is out and in bits? I do not, apparently, need a whole rebuild but simply doing the liners, skimming the heads, piston rings etc is going to start at £1000 - so for a bit more, would it be worth going big valve, porting etc? If its not really going to change my (exclusive) road use then I see no reason to empty Mrs P's kitchen fund. More power, torque etc is always fun (who wouldn't want a DBS, for example) but not if its going to cost the earth for just a little bit more power.
I like the romantic, unlikely notion that an original engine layout might become a collectors car in a decade or three, so don't really want to mess too much with the basic premise of the engine - but optimising the original is OK in my book.
Rich
If you want to assure maximum originality value, then you'll have to retain your own block and heads.
When I was having my 5L rebuilt (and I said this elsewhere very recently), the price for the rebuild, and the time for delivery increased considerably from 'standard' rebuild quotes from the usual websites.
Probably lots of good reasons why, but check with them before you make any assumptions about their online prices.
I wouldn't bother with porting and large valves, unless you are willing to go the extra mile for a remap (though that can now be done quite easily and cheaply circa £250). But larger valves and porting will add a minimum of £1200 I should think.
I would certainly have the reciprocating assembly (pistons, rods, crank, damper etc) fully balanced though. Always money well spent.
As said by others; a decent new camshaft will liven the old girl up nicely.
I've not used Turners, but I have spoken to Mr Turner at length and would highly recommend him as one of your options. He certainly knowns his onions (and his Rover engines).
Its a bit frustrating as I've just fitted a new camshaft - a standard 5L 886, at the suggestion of Power Performance. The previous one came out after 5 years and looked very tatty. However I do know that I ran very low on oil on one occasion and this may have done it.
Power do not seem to be engaging with the guy who's doing the work and so it will probably go to V8D and they can guide me.
Many thanks for all the ideas.
Rich
Power do not seem to be engaging with the guy who's doing the work and so it will probably go to V8D and they can guide me.
Many thanks for all the ideas.
Rich
Whack a stealth cam in this. A cheap alternative. Then sell off a load of your old bits. I'd bet you would end up spending <2.5k all in if you did it yourself.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Range-Rover-P38-4-6-THOR...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Range-Rover-P38-4-6-THOR...
Its also well worth speaking to Roland at ACR. Not as well known (yet) but took on all Wildcat stuff and very highly regarded in offroad rv8. Does my race engine (and now a few.others) and very good. Prices are good too!! Last time I dropped racer engine off there was a wedge (stunning thing!!) Getting worked on so he does know TVRs too.
maybe after some faster cams and light flywheel etc, you can put something like this on top 
>
http://www.webcon.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=15133
>http://www.webcon.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=15133
rickprice said:
Its a bit frustrating as I've just fitted a new camshaft - a standard 5L 886, at the suggestion of Power Performance. The previous one came out after 5 years and looked very tatty. However I do know that I ran very low on oil on one occasion and this may have done it.
Power do not seem to be engaging with the guy who's doing the work and so it will probably go to V8D and they can guide me.
Many thanks for all the ideas.
Rich
As you have a new Cam & don't want to go bonkers.Power do not seem to be engaging with the guy who's doing the work and so it will probably go to V8D and they can guide me.
Many thanks for all the ideas.
Rich
This is what I'd suggest.
Get ported from the Inlet (not sure if exhaust side needs done?) all the way through the system.
(I'd link to V8Developements site, but it's been down for ages)
Plenum Base at 45mm with Flared trumpets
http://www.actproducts.co.uk/product/ti021-trumpet-set-tvr-5-0/
Plenum height increase with insulating gasket
http://www.sc-power.co.uk/pages/sc-power-plenum-spacers.html
Get the Plenum intake widened
http://www.actproducts.co.uk/product/ti024-alloy-plenum-modified-to-71mm-brand-new/
And I believe the Jaguar AFM fits as it is wider
And get the Smooth bore pipes down to the Air Filter (Which I'd change too)
Then get Mark Adams to chip it (but I believe he is doing a Uni course & is therefore not doing them at the mo)
Or the Tornado chip, or if you want to go distributorless, Lloyds do a kit)
http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/engine-management-kits
Oh Look ACT do a kit
http://www.actproducts.co.uk/product/ik005-tornado-5-tvr-5-litre-induction-kit/
As do this lot (just so you don't think I'm pluging one over 'tother)
http://www.torquev8.com/products.html
Not that it's along the lines of what I'm wanting to do or anything.....
Good Luck
Mark
It really depends on what HP you are looking for.
My car is a 450 with a Stealth Cam (replaced as the old cam was worn out), no head work but carbon ACT trumpets.
It has had a larger AFM fitted and a remap (bargain at £450) and is now pushing out 270hp.
If I want to increase the power now, it's going to cost me a fair chunk of cash and I'm at the point of diminishing returns.
If 270 ish from a 450 is enough, look at the larger AFM and remap.
Good luck.
My car is a 450 with a Stealth Cam (replaced as the old cam was worn out), no head work but carbon ACT trumpets.
It has had a larger AFM fitted and a remap (bargain at £450) and is now pushing out 270hp.
If I want to increase the power now, it's going to cost me a fair chunk of cash and I'm at the point of diminishing returns.
If 270 ish from a 450 is enough, look at the larger AFM and remap.
Good luck.
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