Is Porsche Going to End Up Like Mercedes or BMW?

[Miopyk]

Years ago when I was growing up in the 70s my dad bought his first new Mecedes Benz. He waited more than a year for it and when it arrived he was thrilled to bit as it was the car he'd dreamed of owning all his working life. They were well built, reliable, prestigious, in demand and had in image up there with the best in the industry.

After 3 years or so he'd put around 40K miles on it and decided to get another. When he got back from the dealer he was really disappointed and explained that the waiting list was around 18months for a new one and so he was contemplating getting something else. He didn't of course because once you've hit the top it's really difficult to start going down again and the next one arrived 2 years later. He never drove anything else until he finally gave up driving in his late 70s due to illness.

Fast forward to the present day and now you can get a new Mercedes off the lot if you're not too bothered about spec, you can get low rate finance and while 25 years ago if you wanted a radio you had to pay extra for it today's cars pretty much come with everything as standard. That combined with the fact that while the prestige and image is still there it's not what it once was probably because the accountants are now in charge and the issues they had in the late 90s with quality etc.

So where is this going? Well I get the feeling Porsche are starting to go down the same road. Right now I think a lot of people see the image and product as more superior to Mercedes, BMW, Audi et al but if they continue to add more models and build more of them will they just end up being another German prestige brand where quantity becomes more important that quality and then have to start trading on their history because the products will be required to attract the masses rather than the more restricted markets they operate in now.

Just the rambling thoughts of a tired old man sat watching a Bond film from the same period that my dad bought his first Mercedes Benz.

[Sine Metu]

Do you mean in terms of scale, numbers of cars? The global market for premium cars is far bigger now than it was in the 1970's. The number of billionaires in the world has doubled in the last two years. Huge new markets are emerging with large affluent population groups who want premium brands. Wouldn't. Cat maker be crazy not to up production to meet demand. Even Ferrari will have to grow despite their current cap on production. They won't walk away from potentially billions in. potential revenue.

[bompey]

Miopyk,

I think you're right up to a point. Porsche, and the parent company of vw / audi group, want to maximise profits and need to sell more cars to do this. i think Porsche will remain "high end" but volumes will increase. They don't need to sell polo and golf equivalent models but will compete against the high end of the other family brands where margins are higher. I am sure we will soon read about how much profit there is on every macan and if they produce a baby panamera i can see that competing with 5 series and top spec 3 series BMs..
bompey

[SkinnyPete]

I wonder how long it'll be until Porsches become so popular they have to be NCAP tested.

[av185]

No.

[Ed from Cyprus]

The real issue and brand dilution will happen only if they start selling cheap cars with small engines, like MB a-c or BMW 1-3s. This will kill reputation even if they will keep building excellent sports cars.

[EricE]

I think they are headed there. Don't underestimate Piech having a personal agenda against the name Porsche for many reasons, he doesn't mind diluting the brand, especially while maximizing profits in the process. See Audi vs Porsche at Le Mans which makes no sense at all, Audi planning to move on to F1 now, etc. The next step is an A4 based mini-panamera IMO.

[fastgerman]

You know that you can download music these days and woman can vote also

[Mario149]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It's funny reading that and you are spot on, yet the 991 was the first 911 where I looked at the base price and thought "bloody hell!" - 997.2 was low £60ks from memory when launched and a 991 is now pushing £74k, so not entirely dissimilar when inflation is accounted for. To me, the main reason why the 991 seems expensive now is that the Boxster and Cayman are now such good products at the top end of their model ranges (cmoose and I could argue for days about VFM at the lower end ). And when throwing virtually the entire options list at a Boxster GTS only gets you to the base price of a 991 Cabriolet - or to look at it another way, doing similar specs on both yields a £30k difference between 2 cars which on paper perform as near as makes no difference the same, except one can carry 2 extra half size people - you start to feel a little less 911 love unless you've got money to burn.

Now there are always going to be people who want an engine at the back and the 911 brand itself, no matter how good a Cayster is, which is fine, each to their own. The previous gens of Cayster were always very good and arguably a better steer than the 981 and its EPAS (although I can't say I genuinely miss HPAS), but I personally struggled greatly with the styling and on paper performance - it's not cool to say it, but in the absence of being able to drive the tits off a demo car of each model on track and road, I certainly resort to 0-60 & 0-100 times and a selection of mag reviews to form an opinion, and a test drive at the dealer only happens at the stage I want to confirm my thoughts (or not) before a purchase. Finally there's the price issue covered above. All 4 of those aspects have hit "critical mass" with me, and I suspect quite a few others, for the 981 cars:

1) they are to my eye very good looking compared to the 986/987s which to me always looked a bit soft
2) 0-62 times and 0-100 times finally dropped below 5s and into the 10s respectively i.e. for me meaning that they hit certain "benchmarks" were all of a sudden properly fast and genuinely comparable to their 911 competitors (Carrera and Cab) in a straight line
3) all the reviews have sung their praises (although to be fair they've always been very well received), but more than that, the video reviews when you see the journos react to them - I'm thinking of you Steve Sutcliffe!
4) they make their nearest competitor 911s look waaaaay over-priced

None of these individually were enough to tip the scales, but collectively with a couple of test drives they've completely sold me. Me being a historical 911 fanboy and "meh Cayman/Boxster whatever" person, who could have put together up to £100k in cash up front for a cooking, well specced 991 (GT)S as my first ever new Porsche (go big or go home! ), to save a shed load of money and go down the Boxster GTS route.

Maybe that's what Porsche want, to push people like me "down" the range and make the 911 feel more expensive than it really is and in doing so recapture a bit of the prestige that might have been lost due to the fact that they now sell so many. Who knows, but I imagine it'd be interested to sit in on their strategy meetings!

[HollywoodStig]

Porsche sold over 10,000 new cars in 2005 with a range that consisted of;

- 911
- Boxster
- Cayenne

Fast forward to 2014 & they still haven't surpassed that number, even with the following incremental models;

- Cayman
- Panamera
- Macan
- 918 (okay that doesn't really count)

Cayenne/Macan must account for half of everything sold so the sports cars as a percentage are getting rarer - less freely available.

Wonder if it will help residuals in the long term?

[HollywoodStig]

Porsche sold over 10,000 new cars in 2005 with a range that consisted of;

- 911
- Boxster
- Cayenne

Fast forward to 2014 & they still haven't surpassed that number, even with the following incremental models;

- Cayman
- Panamera
- Macan
- 918 (okay that doesn't really count)

Cayenne/Macan must account for half of everything sold so the sports cars as a percentage are getting rarer - less freely available.

Wonder if it will help residuals in the long term?

[Sine Metu]

There's a phrase to describe this modern phenomenon on luxury goods. Masstige. When 'Prestige' brands having created the iconic brand equity make themselves available to an ever wider 'mass' audience without diluting the brand. Trust me, Porsche will be fine. They are still a very very small producer in the greater scheme of things and therefore have a huge amount of head room. You have to remember as well, in some suburbs you may have a large density of affluent consumers so Porsches amongst this group may feel common s muck. But not for the average consumer. A Porsche is still a very high end brand. Lots of May well be able to afford an entry model such as a Macan but that doesn't lessen the halo of something like a 918 which is still pure automotive royalty. Or something like a 911turbo which remains an incredible icon, desired by many, affordable to very few. And even of Porsche did an a4 based mini Panamera, it would affect the desirability of the expensive stuff. Maserati's new 911 chaser looks awesome and will be dripping in desirability and cool despite the new Ghibli exec box. And don't forget also, Porsche built a fairly inexpensive entry level model years ago with the 924. They've always had an eye on the wide market opportunity for the brand and know well that your range can cater for a range of consumer types and pockets. And why not. Look how many people were on forums saying Porsche should make a cheaper smer lighter Boxter recently.

[anonymous-user]

With my hindsight glasses on, I'd say for MB the turning point was the introduction of the 190. That was the point at which MB decided to compete with BMW at 3 series level, and with it, start pursuing mass appeal. If you look at their development since, they've followed the path of ever-increasing numbers of models to fill (or create) specific niches in the market.

Roll the clock back and the Porsche range was 911, 928, 924, 944. With the 928 intended to replace the 911.

Now there' say Panamera, Cayenne, Macan, Cayman and Boxster. And the 911. The Pajun - Panamera lite - is apparently delayed but not ruled out.

Porsche is in a path, and it's the same path MB travelled. They will get there in the end. Oddly, I was wondering the other day whether a brand like Bentley might end up doing the same.

[andrew]

looking at a march 1985 copy of car that happens to be to hand, a basic 911 cost £24k against c£29k for a basic ferrari or lambo ( or detomaso ! )

nowadays it costs around 40% as much

i'm not sure what that proves !

[Mario149]

andrew said:

looking at a march 1985 copy of car that happens to be to hand, a basic 911 cost £24k against c£29k for a basic ferrari or lambo ( or detomaso ! )

nowadays it costs around 40% as much

i'm not sure what that proves !

That Ferraris were cheap!

http://www.measuringworth.com/ukcompare/relativeva...

[andrew]

Mario149 said:

andrew said:

looking at a march 1985 copy of car that happens to be to hand, a basic 911 cost £24k against c£29k for a basic ferrari or lambo ( or detomaso ! )

nowadays it costs around 40% as much

i'm not sure what that proves !

That Ferraris were cheap!

http://www.measuringworth.com/ukcompare/relativeva...

i wasn't too sure whether to use the rpi ( up by a factor of 2.5 ) or the cost of the magazine ( 3.5 ) !

[Mario149]

Still cheap either way!

[Steve Rance]

I think that everything is morphing in the same general direction. Torque vectoring Ediffs and multi layered electronic aids narrow the performance gap between road cars and their race derivatives - to a point - but obviously by removing much of the input ownus from the driver. Some people will think that this will be a good thing and some ( the minority ) will see it as bad. Either way, that's the way things will go and Porsche being Porsche will just execute the brief better than most others. But fundamental differences between the driving feel of cars produced by different manufactures will - by the nature of the technology that they employ - gradually diminish.

So yes, I think ultimately there will be a general morphing towards a 'regulation sports car' whether it be front engine, rear engined, mid engined. 2wd, 4wd or SUV