Discussion
Hello,
This summer I will be moving to a bigger premises and will have the space to get a couple CNC machines, I currently get some of my products made at a local CNC shop but am looking to bringing production in house, this will allow me to keep an eye on QC, offer more products due to removing min quantities and lower part costs by a factor of 5 (ignoring machine purchase), I am lucky enough to be able to buy a machine out right, within reason, and so I can sit on the machine without it having to earn money to pay its keep and so there is I can learn it on my own pace and there is no rush for it to pay its keep.
The issue is where do I start learning about these things and to differentiate between a good and bad machine?
I have experience with various CAD packages & 3D Printers etc, I am hoping this will stand me in good sted to learn to operate and program one of these machines.
Any help is greatly appreciated
This summer I will be moving to a bigger premises and will have the space to get a couple CNC machines, I currently get some of my products made at a local CNC shop but am looking to bringing production in house, this will allow me to keep an eye on QC, offer more products due to removing min quantities and lower part costs by a factor of 5 (ignoring machine purchase), I am lucky enough to be able to buy a machine out right, within reason, and so I can sit on the machine without it having to earn money to pay its keep and so there is I can learn it on my own pace and there is no rush for it to pay its keep.
The issue is where do I start learning about these things and to differentiate between a good and bad machine?
I have experience with various CAD packages & 3D Printers etc, I am hoping this will stand me in good sted to learn to operate and program one of these machines.
Any help is greatly appreciated
Glad you said you will teach yourself as getting skilled staff is becoming close to impossible. As for machines we buy ours from http://www.millscnc.co.uk/. Very good machines, not the cheapest but you get what you pay for.
Mudgey said:
offer more products due to removing min quantities and lower part costs by a factor of 5 (ignoring machine purchase)
I think you may be in for a shock. MOQs are an economic fact of life, not someone trying to stitch you up. You will have to amortise your set up and programming costs over the production run, lower quantities = higher prices.If you can reduce the parts costs by a factor of 5 you are being stitched up. Machine time, material costs and to some extent labour costs are pretty even across the board. You cannot ignore the capital used to purchase the machines, it is an intrinsic element of your costs.
If you really do have all the time in the world it might be worth popping in to your local technical college. They have started to train engineering apprentices again and are re-equipping. To utilise their equipment better some of them are offering more hands on shorter courses, specifically for programming or setting which would be very useful to you.
Thanks for the replies.
I have only touched the surface on this and you guys have brought up some interesting further research I will do via Google.
I have looked at material costs only so far, and as mentioned these are just under 20% of the cost I am being charged. Will work out average wear rates for tooling etc, software and see what we get at the end of it.
Is there anything else I should be looking into ?
Edit:
I forgot to add, with a budget of 20k would I get a good 2nd hand machine CNC lathe with auto feed, which has the capability of turning a Hex shaped part? Software and tooling etc?
I have only touched the surface on this and you guys have brought up some interesting further research I will do via Google.
I have looked at material costs only so far, and as mentioned these are just under 20% of the cost I am being charged. Will work out average wear rates for tooling etc, software and see what we get at the end of it.
Is there anything else I should be looking into ?
Edit:
I forgot to add, with a budget of 20k would I get a good 2nd hand machine CNC lathe with auto feed, which has the capability of turning a Hex shaped part? Software and tooling etc?
Edited by Mudgey on Tuesday 13th January 13:38
The material costs on a lot of the parts we make are minimal compared to the final cost, you will have to be ignoring a lot of costs to save 5 fold. Material, consumables, setup time, production time, tooling costs, material handling, inspection time/equipment, cleaning/processing parts, overheads etc, you can probably try to ignore a lot of the time costs but to end up with a good quality part you are going to have dedicate more time to machining which will take away from other things possibly and make it less cost effective.
For me the issue isn't in setting the tools/machine its the layout of the program, knowing what works best in what material and how to overcome problems although there is a lot of assistance to be had I feel a lot of that is down to experience so be prepared for a steep learning curve and some replacement tools.
Diameter of the part would determine the size of the machine and cost involved, likewise whether you generate the hexagon or run hexagon bar.
For me the issue isn't in setting the tools/machine its the layout of the program, knowing what works best in what material and how to overcome problems although there is a lot of assistance to be had I feel a lot of that is down to experience so be prepared for a steep learning curve and some replacement tools.
Diameter of the part would determine the size of the machine and cost involved, likewise whether you generate the hexagon or run hexagon bar.
I'm an electronics guy, but I am capable of doing basic stuff on a manual lathe.
Unless you want to spend a great deal of time learning, don't mind ruining a lot of material, as well as some tooling, and maybe the lathe too, and then possibly injuring someone, then you'll really need to get someone in who knows what they are doing.
Unless you want to spend a great deal of time learning, don't mind ruining a lot of material, as well as some tooling, and maybe the lathe too, and then possibly injuring someone, then you'll really need to get someone in who knows what they are doing.
Mudgey said:
I have looked at material costs only so far, and as mentioned these are just under 20% of the cost I am being charged. Will work out average wear rates for tooling etc, software and see what we get at the end of it.
Is there anything else I should be looking into ?
We make some parts costing £5-£8 with a material element of about 60p. There are loads more costs than just materials. Just tips for the tools can cost anywhere between £3 and £75 each and do not last anything like forever!Is there anything else I should be looking into ?
Mudgey said:
I forgot to add, with a budget of 20k would I get a good 2nd hand machine CNC lathe with auto feed, which has the capability of turning a Hex shaped part? Software and tooling etc?
You could get a 15-20 year old 2nd hand lathe with pneumatic bar feed to turn hex bar for that price but you would probably spend another £5k on work and tool holding plus tooling. You would also need to get someone to install and commission it properly. Plus you would need a compressor.RK have one - http://www.rk-int.com/product/?&s=colchester-t...
Software can cost between £1500 and £15k depending what you are doing. Or just wing it with G codes...
I'd endorse going for a FANUC control - independent service engineers with knowledge of this control are far more common and spares are also more readily available. Don't be pulled in by attractive deals for crap machines (i know one guy about to shell out £60k for a New lathe with all the bells and whistles, it will be junk with a resale value in 5 years of the square root of f**k all)
In terms of turning a hex, if its a standard size not particularly tied up you can turn standard hex bar stock. Otherwise you are going to need C axis and milling to machine it to size, not difficult to do in terms of programming but will cost more than a two axis lathe - on the positive side, cross holes, flats, keyways etc will be machinable as opposed to having to second op on a milling machine.
Magazine barfeeds are great if you are doing medium/high volume however it might be worth considering a bar-puller in the turret if its smaller batches, these are relatively inexpensive and easy to utilise.
Don't be put off by 1990's quality Japanese machines such as Mori Seiki's, Takisawa, Ikegai etc. if they've been maintained they are still better machines than all of the new stuff coming out of Taiwan/China/Korea/USA etc - personally i'd run a good 15 year Mori SL25 over a new Doosan, HAAS etc. No Turcite issues as Doosans are prone to on the X axis and no cheapo mass produced electrics like HAAS use that cost a frigging fortune when they go wrong (and guess who the only person is who can supply HAAS parts?.....)
PM me if you need any help, I sell this kit for a living.
MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL - DO NOT FALL FOR DMG'S SEXY MARKETING, THEY ARE THE BIGGEST PILE OF s
t ON THE MARKET TODAY. They do nice guarding if you like that sort of thing but it helps pull in the suckers.
In terms of turning a hex, if its a standard size not particularly tied up you can turn standard hex bar stock. Otherwise you are going to need C axis and milling to machine it to size, not difficult to do in terms of programming but will cost more than a two axis lathe - on the positive side, cross holes, flats, keyways etc will be machinable as opposed to having to second op on a milling machine.
Magazine barfeeds are great if you are doing medium/high volume however it might be worth considering a bar-puller in the turret if its smaller batches, these are relatively inexpensive and easy to utilise.
Don't be put off by 1990's quality Japanese machines such as Mori Seiki's, Takisawa, Ikegai etc. if they've been maintained they are still better machines than all of the new stuff coming out of Taiwan/China/Korea/USA etc - personally i'd run a good 15 year Mori SL25 over a new Doosan, HAAS etc. No Turcite issues as Doosans are prone to on the X axis and no cheapo mass produced electrics like HAAS use that cost a frigging fortune when they go wrong (and guess who the only person is who can supply HAAS parts?.....)
PM me if you need any help, I sell this kit for a living.
MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL - DO NOT FALL FOR DMG'S SEXY MARKETING, THEY ARE THE BIGGEST PILE OF s
t ON THE MARKET TODAY. They do nice guarding if you like that sort of thing but it helps pull in the suckers. Legacywr said:
From experience, I wouldn't buy a secondhand machine!
I agree with this. New machines will have warranty and normally an engineer in site in 24hrs. Also if you are starting out a new machine will come with training, phone support, IT support and a lot will even do some initial programming to get you in production. stumpage said:
I agree with this. New machines will have warranty and normally an engineer in site in 24hrs. Also if you are starting out a new machine will come with training, phone support, IT support and a lot will even do some initial programming to get you in production.
You sure about the 24 hour claim ? I always sell machines with warranty and when I hear some of the bulls**t claims made by some of the new sales guys out there I'm not convinced the technical know how is particularly great.I would also recommend a Doosan machines. Also need to think about stuff like when you set a job up which is a repeat that you did last week and for some annoying reason it doesn't cut the same this time. You can buy a bar of Ti and be cutting a 0.008 limit, put another length in and Boom, all over the place and that's an hour gone!.
A £20k machine will cause problems, it would have seen a hard life and been battered about. Once a machine takes a whack it never seems to be as good as it was.
I have 14 Doosan Lathes (amongst our fleet of 29)and I reckon they are superb value and I will continue to buy them, in fact we are looking to buy another 4 this year. We try to replace our machines once they get to 5 or 6 years old.
A £20k machine will cause problems, it would have seen a hard life and been battered about. Once a machine takes a whack it never seems to be as good as it was.
I have 14 Doosan Lathes (amongst our fleet of 29)and I reckon they are superb value and I will continue to buy them, in fact we are looking to buy another 4 this year. We try to replace our machines once they get to 5 or 6 years old.
oddball1973 said:
stumpage said:
I agree with this. New machines will have warranty and normally an engineer in site in 24hrs. Also if you are starting out a new machine will come with training, phone support, IT support and a lot will even do some initial programming to get you in production.
You sure about the 24 hour claim ? I always sell machines with warranty and when I hear some of the bulls**t claims made by some of the new sales guys out there I'm not convinced the technical know how is particularly great.As a purchaser of machines, some new some second hand, I know which method gives me the less grief. When I have had a problem with a new machine, that cannot be solved remotely, I have had engineers in the next day without any fuss (note I said normally not always). Also spares are easy to get. I have lost far to many machine hours waiting for parts to be sourced or repaired on older machines that I now always buy new.
Don't get me wrong there are merits to second hand machines, but give me a choice. New every time.
Edited by stumpage on Friday 16th January 23:10
New is great if you can afford it and the job justifies it but not everyone has £280k for a new Correa, I've got a nice 10 year old machine coming in from Belgium for £70k that will do a great job and is totally supportable.
To the guy who said all used machines are knackered that's a ridiculous statement, are all used cars knackered? I've bought quality 20 year old machines from aerospace and medical companies holding 10uM all day and I've seen cheap 2 year old Chinese machines wrecked because the builder forgot to connect the lube system to the metering valves.
Machines are no different to cars, would you rather a 10 year Audi or a brand new Proton ?
To the guy who said all used machines are knackered that's a ridiculous statement, are all used cars knackered? I've bought quality 20 year old machines from aerospace and medical companies holding 10uM all day and I've seen cheap 2 year old Chinese machines wrecked because the builder forgot to connect the lube system to the metering valves.
Machines are no different to cars, would you rather a 10 year Audi or a brand new Proton ?
oddball1973 said:
New is great if you can afford it and the job justifies it but not everyone has £280k for a new Correa, I've got a nice 10 year old machine coming in from Belgium for £70k that will do a great job and is totally supportable.
To the guy who said all used machines are knackered that's a ridiculous statement, are all used cars knackered? I've bought quality 20 year old machines from aerospace and medical companies holding 10uM all day and I've seen cheap 2 year old Chinese machines wrecked because the builder forgot to connect the lube system to the metering valves.
Machines are no different to cars, would you rather a 10 year Audi or a brand new Proton ?
Read his post, he wants to spend £20k.. not £70k!!.. so he would be getting a 10 year old Proton, (in your term of cars).. oh and I would actually rather a new machine lolTo the guy who said all used machines are knackered that's a ridiculous statement, are all used cars knackered? I've bought quality 20 year old machines from aerospace and medical companies holding 10uM all day and I've seen cheap 2 year old Chinese machines wrecked because the builder forgot to connect the lube system to the metering valves.
Machines are no different to cars, would you rather a 10 year Audi or a brand new Proton ?
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