Single seater, open wheel kit cars on track days.
Discussion
Bit of a wierd one.
You see most trackdays have no single seater/open wheel car rules inplace except for a few rare open wheel only sessions.
Im in the design stage of a single seater kit car to be fast road and track capable - aim for full IVA and road legal status.
However I am concerned that if it is viewed in the same way as a formula ford or similar race open wheeler then I'd never be able to go on track except the odd rare occasions or unless i sign up to test days.
Im looking initially at central single seat, outboard wheels and wishbones but as required for IVA, cycle wings over the wheels.
all the caterfields have exposed front ends like im planning plus nowadays there are a few exo style cars with all 4 wheels having exposed suspension with cycle wings and a few even as single seaters. such types include ariel atom, some of the MEV kits, furure f1, BAC mono etc.
The arguement you hear when you google the topic is crash safety etc and straight line speeds. Some of the above kits have exposes suspension, and the best ones are insanely fast, probably faster than many formula type cars.
So where does the boundary or cross over lie??
Having a single seat on its own clearly isnt all that, neither is having exposed "open wheels" albeit with flimsy cycle wings on.
You see most trackdays have no single seater/open wheel car rules inplace except for a few rare open wheel only sessions.
Im in the design stage of a single seater kit car to be fast road and track capable - aim for full IVA and road legal status.
However I am concerned that if it is viewed in the same way as a formula ford or similar race open wheeler then I'd never be able to go on track except the odd rare occasions or unless i sign up to test days.
Im looking initially at central single seat, outboard wheels and wishbones but as required for IVA, cycle wings over the wheels.
all the caterfields have exposed front ends like im planning plus nowadays there are a few exo style cars with all 4 wheels having exposed suspension with cycle wings and a few even as single seaters. such types include ariel atom, some of the MEV kits, furure f1, BAC mono etc.
The arguement you hear when you google the topic is crash safety etc and straight line speeds. Some of the above kits have exposes suspension, and the best ones are insanely fast, probably faster than many formula type cars.
So where does the boundary or cross over lie??
Having a single seat on its own clearly isnt all that, neither is having exposed "open wheels" albeit with flimsy cycle wings on.
The reason I was given when I owned single seaters was due to a lack of brake lights other cars following could not tell when you were slowing down, and because of their low overall height, it would be possible for a larger vehicle to go over the top of you with disastrous consequences.
The people ive rung either say blanket no or say theyd need to see the finished car. Couple have said if its a kit car something like an atom or similar it would be fine.
But of course no one has anything near an answer.
Its going to look similar to a late 80's early 90s F1 car ie when they still had some curves and a low nose and fairly simple shape wings. Something loosely based on the williams Fw14 series or similar. Own designed double wishbone suspension with inboard dampers and powered by a moderately modified Jag AJV8 or a turbo'd AJV6/duratec V6.
But of course no one has anything near an answer.
Its going to look similar to a late 80's early 90s F1 car ie when they still had some curves and a low nose and fairly simple shape wings. Something loosely based on the williams Fw14 series or similar. Own designed double wishbone suspension with inboard dampers and powered by a moderately modified Jag AJV8 or a turbo'd AJV6/duratec V6.
Daft as it is, the pragmatic answer might be to get a ARDS test done, and do testing days. Presumably they don't ban 'open wheel' cars.
I can understand why there is an issue - a formula ford getting thumped by a skyline doesn't bear thinking about, but the line seems utterly arbitrary when you start down the line of caterfields, and on to things like the BAC mono (which I pick on as it is pretty much a FF type chassis with some additional cosmetic stuff).
I can understand why there is an issue - a formula ford getting thumped by a skyline doesn't bear thinking about, but the line seems utterly arbitrary when you start down the line of caterfields, and on to things like the BAC mono (which I pick on as it is pretty much a FF type chassis with some additional cosmetic stuff).
ARDS isnt a problem, will have my race license back soon. The only issue then is turning up to test days when ive no intention of racing the car in any series.
Its a car for fun and perhaps the odd sprint/hillclimb if i fancy it, hence trackdays are the ideal realm for me to aim for.
It does seem a bit silly as you say with the caterfields etc.
Its a car for fun and perhaps the odd sprint/hillclimb if i fancy it, hence trackdays are the ideal realm for me to aim for.
It does seem a bit silly as you say with the caterfields etc.
aww999 said:
Would that logic still apply if someone modifies a Fomula FOrd (or similar) just enough to IVA it?
That's my understanding, yes. The argument about laptimes, visibility and even exposed wheels are all pointless in my opinion given the speed and design of some of the current crop of track day cars.Ultimately it comes down to the liability insurance. Back in the day we used to allow single seaters on track days. The insurance company only care about money and how easy a case is going to be fight or pay off. If a car is road legal then much of the responsibility for ensuring something is "fit for purpose" is passed onto the ministry of transport.
/2p
Jonny
BaT
jonnyleroux said:
If it's a fully road-legal car (i.e. no changes made since IVA) then, in theory, no-one should be able to turn you away from a track day with it.
Jonny
BaT
"In theory" a track day company can apply pretty much any rule that they wish, if they include it in their condition and they are not considered lawfully "unreasonable". Jonny
BaT
There are a series of Laws about track days, its down to local bylaws, insurance, safety, liabilities and preference of the companies and tracks involved.
A company might decided that having a track day shared by 60s road legal classics * and modern performance cars isn't safe and ban any car after 1970.
Isn't there a thread about some new unmodded cars failing tough noise restrictions.
* no offence to anybody out there who has a road legal 60s classic that will do 200 mph and lap the ring faster than 911 - its only an illustration!
Edited by balls-out on Friday 16th January 09:11
balls-out said:
"In theory" a track day company can apply pretty much any rule that they wish, if they include it in their condition and they are not considered lawfully "unreasonable".
There are a series of Laws about track days, its down to local bylaws, insurance, safety, liabilities and preference of the companies and tracks involved.
A company might decided that having a track day shared by 60s road legal classics * and modern performance cars isn't safe and ban any car after 1970.
Isn't there a thread about some new unmodded cars failing tough noise restrictions.
* no offence to anybody out there who has a road legal 60s classic that will do 200 mph and lap the ring faster than 911 - its only an illustration!
Point taken. I take the approach that track day cars are like guns - it doesn't matter how much firepower your weapon has, it's the "weapon" in control that is going to cause the damage. We've had guys in hertz-rented hatchbacks cause far more aggro (and damage) than guys in Radical SR8's for example. Blanket banning any one type of car is silly. If the ministry have deemed it fit to drive around on the roads, it should be fit to drive around a circuit. Besides, the Caterham/Lotus7 is technically a 1960's car but I don't think anyone would suggest they shouldn't share the same circuit as a modern day Lotus or Porsche.There are a series of Laws about track days, its down to local bylaws, insurance, safety, liabilities and preference of the companies and tracks involved.
A company might decided that having a track day shared by 60s road legal classics * and modern performance cars isn't safe and ban any car after 1970.
Isn't there a thread about some new unmodded cars failing tough noise restrictions.
* no offence to anybody out there who has a road legal 60s classic that will do 200 mph and lap the ring faster than 911 - its only an illustration!
Edited by balls-out on Friday 16th January 09:11
Ironically, most of the non-road-legal cars are in far better condition mechanically than half of the cars on the road, but sadly that doesn't help you try and justify the cars existance to a judge & jury when you end up in court.
Jonny
BaT
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