shirty boss - advice please
Discussion
I've recently started a new job. At interview, the issue of training was raised, but just in a "we'll want to train you up" was, nothing more.
So, now I've been doing the job a couple of months. Training so far has been "free", but if it clashes with your shift, you have to take unpaid leave to attend.
Now, I've been told I will need to pay for future, mandatory training, as "graduates are not entitled to free training". As far as I know, I'm one of only two graduates at the company, the other graduate paid up with out complaint, they tell me.
Apart from being a bl88dy cheeky mare, can this woman legally do this?
I've checked with codes of practice for the industry, and undertaking this qualification is indeed mandatory for all new staff.
So, now I've been doing the job a couple of months. Training so far has been "free", but if it clashes with your shift, you have to take unpaid leave to attend.
Now, I've been told I will need to pay for future, mandatory training, as "graduates are not entitled to free training". As far as I know, I'm one of only two graduates at the company, the other graduate paid up with out complaint, they tell me.
Apart from being a bl88dy cheeky mare, can this woman legally do this?
I've checked with codes of practice for the industry, and undertaking this qualification is indeed mandatory for all new staff.
if they didn't tell you at the time of your interview, and your contract doesn't say you have to pay for mandatory training, then either refuse to pay or refuse the training.
But by the sounds of it you don't like your boss so maybe you should look for another job?
After all, an enjoyable job under a boss you don't like quickly becomes a chore.
But by the sounds of it you don't like your boss so maybe you should look for another job?
After all, an enjoyable job under a boss you don't like quickly becomes a chore.
oh and this wasn't mentioned at interview and since i've not seen hide nor hair of a contract yet (my immediate superior recently quit so paperwork's a mess) i have no idea if this kind of thing is covered in the contract.
so now we're dealing with the company owner directly (said mare
)
so now we're dealing with the company owner directly (said mare
)I dont know what industry your in, but in 16 years in IT, I've never paid for my time on a training course and I've been on a lot in that time.
I would have a chat with your personnel department - if they agree with your boss, and you need the training, then you will just have to cough up.
I would have a chat with your personnel department - if they agree with your boss, and you need the training, then you will just have to cough up.
In my last role was as a personnel bod for a very large organisation (25k employees). We were obliged to get a full contract to all employees within 8 weeks of their start date.
It could just have been a policy, or it may be in law somewhere - I don't know.
As for paying for your own training, I don't know what field you are in but this seems unusual, particularly if it wasn't stated clearly in the interview.
It could just have been a policy, or it may be in law somewhere - I don't know.
As for paying for your own training, I don't know what field you are in but this seems unusual, particularly if it wasn't stated clearly in the interview.
With the company I work for, if they want us to be able to drive another vehicle or handle dangerous stuff, they put us through the training, but we have to sign an agreement to say that if we leave within 2 years we pay a % of the cost.
but if we want to do the training we pay for it, they take it out of our wages everyweek.
but if we want to do the training we pay for it, they take it out of our wages everyweek.
Grr, I suspect I'm going to have to take it on the chin. I'm likely to only work for the company for 18 months or so whilst I get my own business off the ground, so I suspect that's why I'm getting it in the neck over this. The training will stick with me though, meaning I can come back to the job in slack periods if I have to.
What particularly upset me, however, is that this company was just told they've been awarded investors in people status two weeks ago.
That we are not paid for training doesn't usually affect me as I work nights for them (run my own business during the day) - but day workers loose a day's pay but still have to arrange/pay for childcare when on a training course. We're not paid very much.
The people I work with are really lovely and on the whole very committed to the job. However, the company itself is such a mess that I fully intend to make compaints about them to both the HSE and the company who award them contracts whenever I do go. There's a local shortage of such staff so it wouldn't hurt the employees too much.
I work in domicillary care you see. The kind of situation I find myself in with regard the boss on top of this training issue include this example from yesterday.
My first call of the day, an elderly gentleman with learning difficulties who lives on his own. He's developed a blockage in his catheter. It's by-passing so not going to do any major damage, but it's uncomfortable and is causing him distress. He doesn't know how to contact the district nurse himself. There's no record of her no. in the contacts book, so I call the office and reach "mare". She sounds annoyed. "This happens every weekend", she grumbles. (I visit him every weekend, both sat and sun, and haven't encountered this before). "He should know what to do by now". I tell her I'll call his GP instead, which she tells me is futile as GP's cannot be contacted out of surgery hours. I disagree and say I can get the out of hours no, which she says she's tried before. Anyway, I get the out of hours no, from them I get the district nurse's no, and then manage to get the out of hours district nurse's no and leave a message there (out of hours no open 6pm onward 7 days a week, ordinary no only open mon to fri??!). I explain to the gentleman what I've done, and give him the no to call, writ large enough to read, if no-one has phoned by this evening. I then get a call from mare - she rants at me that I must not make myself late for my other calls because other people are more deserving of help.
This kind of thing happens regularly. If we have concerns about the people we visit, I report them to her (it's a small company and now the manager's left, there's only her and her daughter). For example, a normally mobile gent starts to have problems with walking. We are the only people who see him perhaps for weeks at a time. Her pat answer is usually that it's not our problem - if they need help, they have to arrange it themselves. Like, eh? So what are we for then? I've started telling clients to push the boss when they grumble to me about standards of care (eg. being shorted the amount of care paid for).
Sorry, I#d better get off the hobby horse now
What particularly upset me, however, is that this company was just told they've been awarded investors in people status two weeks ago.
That we are not paid for training doesn't usually affect me as I work nights for them (run my own business during the day) - but day workers loose a day's pay but still have to arrange/pay for childcare when on a training course. We're not paid very much.
The people I work with are really lovely and on the whole very committed to the job. However, the company itself is such a mess that I fully intend to make compaints about them to both the HSE and the company who award them contracts whenever I do go. There's a local shortage of such staff so it wouldn't hurt the employees too much.
I work in domicillary care you see. The kind of situation I find myself in with regard the boss on top of this training issue include this example from yesterday.
My first call of the day, an elderly gentleman with learning difficulties who lives on his own. He's developed a blockage in his catheter. It's by-passing so not going to do any major damage, but it's uncomfortable and is causing him distress. He doesn't know how to contact the district nurse himself. There's no record of her no. in the contacts book, so I call the office and reach "mare". She sounds annoyed. "This happens every weekend", she grumbles. (I visit him every weekend, both sat and sun, and haven't encountered this before). "He should know what to do by now". I tell her I'll call his GP instead, which she tells me is futile as GP's cannot be contacted out of surgery hours. I disagree and say I can get the out of hours no, which she says she's tried before. Anyway, I get the out of hours no, from them I get the district nurse's no, and then manage to get the out of hours district nurse's no and leave a message there (out of hours no open 6pm onward 7 days a week, ordinary no only open mon to fri??!). I explain to the gentleman what I've done, and give him the no to call, writ large enough to read, if no-one has phoned by this evening. I then get a call from mare - she rants at me that I must not make myself late for my other calls because other people are more deserving of help.
This kind of thing happens regularly. If we have concerns about the people we visit, I report them to her (it's a small company and now the manager's left, there's only her and her daughter). For example, a normally mobile gent starts to have problems with walking. We are the only people who see him perhaps for weeks at a time. Her pat answer is usually that it's not our problem - if they need help, they have to arrange it themselves. Like, eh? So what are we for then? I've started telling clients to push the boss when they grumble to me about standards of care (eg. being shorted the amount of care paid for).
Sorry, I#d better get off the hobby horse now
Ahh, this is definitely up my street, so to speak.
I've just finished working for a county council's personnel dept. where I dealt with social services personnel. Our care staff were routinely expected to gain NVQs in their related fields, and be happy to take on other necessary training. This is all paid for by the council. With expensive training (for example social work qualifications) there is a minimum contracted period - if employees leave earlier than agree, fees have to be repaid. If you have not had it in writing already, and the training is essential perhaps you should stand your ground. If there is a shortage of care staff in the area then perhaps you could find a better employer?
I've just finished working for a county council's personnel dept. where I dealt with social services personnel. Our care staff were routinely expected to gain NVQs in their related fields, and be happy to take on other necessary training. This is all paid for by the council. With expensive training (for example social work qualifications) there is a minimum contracted period - if employees leave earlier than agree, fees have to be repaid. If you have not had it in writing already, and the training is essential perhaps you should stand your ground. If there is a shortage of care staff in the area then perhaps you could find a better employer?
oldbanger said:
Grr, I suspect I'm going to have to take it on the chin. I'm likely to only work for the company for 18 months or so whilst I get my own business off the ground, so I suspect that's why I'm getting it in the neck over this. The training will stick with me though, meaning I can come back to the job in slack periods if I have to.
What particularly upset me, however, is that this company was just told they've been awarded investors in people status two weeks ago.
That we are not paid for training doesn't usually affect me as I work nights for them (run my own business during the day) - but day workers loose a day's pay but still have to arrange/pay for childcare when on a training course. We're not paid very much.
The people I work with are really lovely and on the whole very committed to the job. However, the company itself is such a mess that I fully intend to make compaints about them to both the HSE and the company who award them contracts whenever I do go. There's a local shortage of such staff so it wouldn't hurt the employees too much.
I work in domicillary care you see. The kind of situation I find myself in with regard the boss on top of this training issue include this example from yesterday.
My first call of the day, an elderly gentleman with learning difficulties who lives on his own. He's developed a blockage in his catheter. It's by-passing so not going to do any major damage, but it's uncomfortable and is causing him distress. He doesn't know how to contact the district nurse himself. There's no record of her no. in the contacts book, so I call the office and reach "mare". She sounds annoyed. "This happens every weekend", she grumbles. (I visit him every weekend, both sat and sun, and haven't encountered this before). "He should know what to do by now". I tell her I'll call his GP instead, which she tells me is futile as GP's cannot be contacted out of surgery hours. I disagree and say I can get the out of hours no, which she says she's tried before. Anyway, I get the out of hours no, from them I get the district nurse's no, and then manage to get the out of hours district nurse's no and leave a message there (out of hours no open 6pm onward 7 days a week, ordinary no only open mon to fri??!). I explain to the gentleman what I've done, and give him the no to call, writ large enough to read, if no-one has phoned by this evening. I then get a call from mare - she rants at me that I must not make myself late for my other calls because other people are more deserving of help.
This kind of thing happens regularly. If we have concerns about the people we visit, I report them to her (it's a small company and now the manager's left, there's only her and her daughter). For example, a normally mobile gent starts to have problems with walking. We are the only people who see him perhaps for weeks at a time. Her pat answer is usually that it's not our problem - if they need help, they have to arrange it themselves. Like, eh? So what are we for then? I've started telling clients to push the boss when they grumble to me about standards of care (eg. being shorted the amount of care paid for).
Sorry, I#d better get off the hobby horse now
this sort of pish really gets my goat. My wife once worked at a nursing home in Fife. On the evening/night shift the owners took it upon themselves to take custody of the drugs key. And decant/administer said medications.
Neither were in any way medically qualified.
In the end a number of staff members "whistleblew" to the regional health authorities and only then was any action taken to stop this.
It is so sad that the elderly are abused in this way by "firms" who have absolutly no intrest in their welfare.
MoJo.
ps edited to say sorry for the thread hijack.
>> Edited by mojocvh on Sunday 9th January 17:09
AFAIK 'training' is deductable against tax by the company, so why won't they pay for it when the government will help anyway? I think you should do some research into training grants available and present that to your boss. That way you look like you're saving the whole company money (serious brownie points) - and getting your training paid for by the rest of us!
oldbanger said:
Now, I've been told I will need to pay for future, mandatory training, as "graduates are not entitled to free training".
So why are graduates not entitled to the same training as other employees?
Either (a) The company expects you to already have the appropriate qualification or (b) they pay you so much more than other employees and your contract states that you'll pay for training.
Both sound unlikely; my guess is that they're taking the p155.
oldbanger said:
I've checked with codes of practice for the industry, and undertaking this qualification is indeed mandatory for all new staff.
In which case its an overhead that the company would expect when taking on any new staff.
Bottom line: get the paperwork straightenend out and find out what your position really is. Don't just roll over.
My attitude would be: "if you want me to do the training then you pay for it".
I can understand an employer's concern that they'll be out of pocket if they invest in an employee and then said employee buggers off to a better job, but that can be adequently guarded against with a repayment clause (as already mentioned).
I can understand an employer's concern that they'll be out of pocket if they invest in an employee and then said employee buggers off to a better job, but that can be adequently guarded against with a repayment clause (as already mentioned).
Thanks for the replies (and thanks Ted for moving this to the right forum 
).
I went and looked at the regulations for the industry (came into force this month, came out year 2000) which specify that all new employees have to undertake this training if not already qualified.
Guess what, a couple of paras before the one confirming that the training is mandatory is this: "19.9 The agency has financial resources allocated, plans and operational procedures to achieve and monitor the requirements for workforce training and qualification."
That sounds to me like it's her responsibility to pay for it, not mine.
to the cheeky mare.
I'll be circulating a copy of regs that I know mare doesn't comply with to other staff now, the major ones being for training and for the fact that it *is* our responsibility to report changes in care needs. I know I could change employers, but this agency locally offers the most work, and for the antisocial hours I specifically want to work, pays the most for new staff.
I guess another reason why I want to stay is due to ACAS. I spoke to their helpline about H&S concerns amongst others a few weeks ago. They told me that since I'd only been there a month-ish, I was unwise to rock the boat. Sorry, to me that's like waving a red flag at a bull
). I went and looked at the regulations for the industry (came into force this month, came out year 2000) which specify that all new employees have to undertake this training if not already qualified.
Guess what, a couple of paras before the one confirming that the training is mandatory is this: "19.9 The agency has financial resources allocated, plans and operational procedures to achieve and monitor the requirements for workforce training and qualification."
That sounds to me like it's her responsibility to pay for it, not mine.
to the cheeky mare. I'll be circulating a copy of regs that I know mare doesn't comply with to other staff now, the major ones being for training and for the fact that it *is* our responsibility to report changes in care needs. I know I could change employers, but this agency locally offers the most work, and for the antisocial hours I specifically want to work, pays the most for new staff.
I guess another reason why I want to stay is due to ACAS. I spoke to their helpline about H&S concerns amongst others a few weeks ago. They told me that since I'd only been there a month-ish, I was unwise to rock the boat. Sorry, to me that's like waving a red flag at a bull
mojocvh said:
My wife once worked at a nursing home in Fife. On the evening/night shift the owners took it upon themselves to take custody of the drugs key. And decant/administer said medications.
Neither were in any way medically qualified.
In the end a number of staff members "whistleblew" to the regional health authorities and only then was any action taken to stop this.
It is so sad that the elderly are abused in this way by "firms" who have absolutly no intrest in their welfare.
MoJo.
ps edited to say sorry for the thread hijack.
>> Edited by mojocvh on Sunday 9th January 17:09
Don't be sorry. My family backround is general practice, old style, where the whole family mucks in to run the practice and it's run in a proactive way - ie not just waiting till the most vulnerable (elderly, mentally ill, disabled) turned up at the surgery with a medical complaint. I'd had procedures and ethics drummed into me from when I was no size, and this job was an eye opener into how lax/indifferent some places are.
You expect corners to be cut here and there. We're all human after all, but this business (with three management/admin staff) cannot even organise staff rotas, discourage things like the use of PPE (I had to put it in writing that I wanted disposable aprons - I handle food and excrement in the same shift) etc ad nauseam.
There's about 25-30 care staff. I have no idea what the office staff do all day. As far as I can tell their duties are to organise rotas, tout for new business and order gloves. They are certainly not interested in providing follow-up for current "service users" at any rate. However the rotas are a shambles. Eg. Saturday one lunch shift was double booked, but then breakfast calls hadn't been organised so some of the biddies were still in bed unwashed and unfed till lunchtime.
This is a fairly common occurrence. I was in the office on Weds, when a call came in - someone was still waiting for their carer to call. They put him on hold. Do you know who's supposed to be calling? No? Where's today's rota? You had it. Oh I took it home. No it's in your car mum. The junior office bod (who's also a carer) say's she'll run and do the call. So they speak the gent and say, oh sorry your carer's been held up, she'll be there soon, don't worry.
Oh God I'm turning into Victor Meldrew
Sorry for the ranting 
oh and that since it's my qualification to keep, it;s my responsibility to pay for it.Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff