What make of frame does my bike have?
Discussion
So I have the bike below, an Eastway RD 1.0, which is a carbon framed road bike with disc brakes.
http://www.eastwaybikes.com/product/eastway-rd1-0-...
I read in a preview when the brand was launched that at least some of the bikes are made by Giant, and I'm sure that the frames aren't specifically designed for the Eastway brand but are something else with a new paint job.
Mine in particular is a rim brake frame, modified for discs with the addition of some bracing and extra material. This is obvious as it has rim brake mounts and 130mm hub spacing, and looks identical to the rim brake models also offered by Eastway.
If anyone wants detail pics of specific bits of the frame to help with diagnosis then let me know, it has internal cabling and is electronic groupset compatible, the latter I'm sure wouldn't have been specced by the distributor as SRAM don't have one, and the bike is 'designed' by their distributor.
So, an electronic Tobelerone to whoever works it out!
http://www.eastwaybikes.com/product/eastway-rd1-0-...
I read in a preview when the brand was launched that at least some of the bikes are made by Giant, and I'm sure that the frames aren't specifically designed for the Eastway brand but are something else with a new paint job.
Mine in particular is a rim brake frame, modified for discs with the addition of some bracing and extra material. This is obvious as it has rim brake mounts and 130mm hub spacing, and looks identical to the rim brake models also offered by Eastway.
If anyone wants detail pics of specific bits of the frame to help with diagnosis then let me know, it has internal cabling and is electronic groupset compatible, the latter I'm sure wouldn't have been specced by the distributor as SRAM don't have one, and the bike is 'designed' by their distributor.
So, an electronic Tobelerone to whoever works it out!
IIRC Eastway are a brand that is only sold to independent shops, by Fisher, so they'll not be a common site due to the Evans/Scurgery hegemony, but they are still out there.
http://www.eastwaybikes.com/
http://www.eastwaybikes.com/
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Dammit said:
IIRC Eastway are a brand that is only sold to independent shops, by Fisher, so they'll not be a common site due to the Evans/Scurgery hegemony, but they are still out there.
http://www.eastwaybikes.com/
Indeed, the website is the same as it has been since they launched though. There haven't been any new models and the ones on the site (like mine) have old bits too - I have 20 speed Force gears which have been replaced by Force 22 now. I bought mine from Wiggle a year ago, it was only available for shipping outside the UK at the time but they seem to have done a deal with Fisher to clear the rest of the stock as they were available for anyone to buy recently. http://www.eastwaybikes.com/
CyclingIQ said:
Who really makes your bike? It is a simple enough question. Country of origin has traditionally been a touchy subject for brands that rely on Asia-based ‘manufacturing partners’, let alone revealing who the partners are. Discovering the factory behind the brand is a stubbornly topical pastime amongst bicycle consumers. What’s all the fuss about? Or, perhaps the first question should be “who cares?” After all, does it really matter where a bicycle is made if it meets a consumer’s definition of value? Why are cyclists – myself included – so fascinated about who stuck the tubes together?
Perhaps it’s because our favourite brands continue to beguile us with origin-based hyperbole, long after migrating to an environment bearing little resemblance to the brand story. After all, what do “heritage” and “prestige” have to do with a factory in China? It’s the question – and image – that shadows every bicycle brand with a hidden-from-public-view manufacturing presence in Asia.
As explained in the ‘vertical limit’ series, bicycle manufacturers can be split into three major categories – Original Brand Manufacturer (OBM), Original Design Manufacturer (ODM) or Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). OEM factories produce most of the brands that we see in the Tour de France, and it has been this way for many years. Here’s a condensed (following three-paragraphs) recap:
Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEM’s) are responsible for taking a bicycle brand’s unique design and fabricating it into a finished product. Depending on the client’s requirements, “finished product” can mean different things. It could be:
- tubesets
– a raw, unpainted, frame
– a commercially-ready frameset, boxed in after-market packaging
– a commercially-ready complete bicycle, boxed in after-market packaging
Relationships between bicycle brands and Taiwanese OEM’s began flourishing in the 1990’s, catalysed by Giant Manufacturing Co Ltd’s capitalistic push into westernized regions not previously troubled by yawning gaps in market price settings. A factory that branded and sold its own product was not a new idea, but the sheer scale of Giant’s operations gave it significant competitive advantage against its much smaller peers.
On the consumption side, emotional connection, status projection, exclusivity, ideals and brand loyalty – to name a few factors – would always prevent Giant’s homogenization of any given market. Naturally, smaller brands (with production in the tens of thousands of units or less) grew curious about the possibility of tapping into scaled-up manufacturing processes – such as Giants – in order to reduce their costs whilst improving upon their hallowed place at an end of the market not regarded as primarily price-influenced.
All courtesy of the excellent http://cyclingiq.com/2012/02/14/shadow-optic-the-m...Perhaps it’s because our favourite brands continue to beguile us with origin-based hyperbole, long after migrating to an environment bearing little resemblance to the brand story. After all, what do “heritage” and “prestige” have to do with a factory in China? It’s the question – and image – that shadows every bicycle brand with a hidden-from-public-view manufacturing presence in Asia.
As explained in the ‘vertical limit’ series, bicycle manufacturers can be split into three major categories – Original Brand Manufacturer (OBM), Original Design Manufacturer (ODM) or Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). OEM factories produce most of the brands that we see in the Tour de France, and it has been this way for many years. Here’s a condensed (following three-paragraphs) recap:
Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEM’s) are responsible for taking a bicycle brand’s unique design and fabricating it into a finished product. Depending on the client’s requirements, “finished product” can mean different things. It could be:
- tubesets
– a raw, unpainted, frame
– a commercially-ready frameset, boxed in after-market packaging
– a commercially-ready complete bicycle, boxed in after-market packaging
Relationships between bicycle brands and Taiwanese OEM’s began flourishing in the 1990’s, catalysed by Giant Manufacturing Co Ltd’s capitalistic push into westernized regions not previously troubled by yawning gaps in market price settings. A factory that branded and sold its own product was not a new idea, but the sheer scale of Giant’s operations gave it significant competitive advantage against its much smaller peers.
On the consumption side, emotional connection, status projection, exclusivity, ideals and brand loyalty – to name a few factors – would always prevent Giant’s homogenization of any given market. Naturally, smaller brands (with production in the tens of thousands of units or less) grew curious about the possibility of tapping into scaled-up manufacturing processes – such as Giants – in order to reduce their costs whilst improving upon their hallowed place at an end of the market not regarded as primarily price-influenced.
My tuppence worth, there are very few OBMs anymore and the gap between OEM and ODM has shrunk dramatically. The Chinese and Taiwanese are very good at composites and the second bike manufacturers started to look to the East, they shot themselves in the foot.
Take Deng Fu for example, a highly regarded carbon manufacturing Company, they can easily accomodate the OEM and ODM role. If I want to set up Pabvelo, I can either design the frame myself and get them to make it or take a design that Deng Fu have already created, slap my stickers on it and away we go. Brands like Planet X take the first option, others like Ritte (from the outset at least) chose the second option to get established then started getting savvy and began designing their own frames. The OEM may also own the mould but not the carbon lay up which is proprietary to the brand hence the Ribble/De Rosa 838 debate. Many brands dont have the expertise or budget cability to determine the carbon lay up either so I go with their stock frame. In other circumstances, the brand may own the mould and the OEM will not be able to produce the same frame for either themselves or another brand. So the Ribble and the De Rosa could be the same frame or have a different lay up and thus different riding characteristics, personally I think an OEM had a good design available off the shelf and both brands took advantage, there is no way De Rosa would request a new lay up for a mid range model.
Previously you could check the spec of the geometry but to be honest, most geo is sorted now for sportive, aero and everything in between so OBMs will have little niches like tube profiles that keep them distinct. As we know Giant manufacture a lot of frames for other people, probably because QC/QA at their factory is very high and the output is consistent. Not everyone will be able to afford a Giant manufacture source though and Giant may not want to build Pabvelos so I look elsewhere hence the rise of people like Hong Fu, Miracle and Deng Fu.
Due to the cost of raw carbon, accountability and knowing a little about how factories in the far east operate, I think the idea of "back door frames" is stretched, that somehow a Chinese manufacturer has got hold of a Pinarello mould and is making cheap copies of a Dogma. Its not how companies accused of such practicies operate. OEMs will have a good product already being used by a number of brands, they have no need to produce black market copies. There probably are some out there but you will not need to be a genius to spot them and they are unlikely to be sold from the source of manufacturer.
If I were a betting man, I would say Eastway have taken an existing design from a Chinese/Taiwanese OEM and had it painted to spec, have a look around Hong Fu, Deng Fu, ASI and see if anything matches, they have used 410mm chainstays which should narrow it down a bit as I believe these are unusual on disc braked cx bikes. Eastway are very much a brand and wont have the funding or inclination to do their own thing, dont worry about it, you are probably riding the same frame as many other people albeit with a different name on the side.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 1st February 19:42
Interesting stuff Pablo, I like the idea of setting up J-Rad and building the frames up here so they can be 'Made in Switzerland' and charge a MASSIVE premium over the Chinese frame set.
I'm sure mine is some other brand or manufacturers frame, I'd just like to know what before I decide if I should keep it, or break it up to build onto a steel frame and be very Swiss and buy a BMC Teammachine.
I'm sure mine is some other brand or manufacturers frame, I'd just like to know what before I decide if I should keep it, or break it up to build onto a steel frame and be very Swiss and buy a BMC Teammachine.
Yeah, it's definitely not the same as that Colnago, sadly.
I paid £830 (I don't have to pay VAT, but pay local tax on arrival which was another £80 or so) so yes, a whole lot less than £2k! I bought it a year ago too, before hydraulic discs were available for road bikes so BB7 were the best option at the time. I might swap them for Hy/Rd calipers as my next upgrade though.
I paid £830 (I don't have to pay VAT, but pay local tax on arrival which was another £80 or so) so yes, a whole lot less than £2k! I bought it a year ago too, before hydraulic discs were available for road bikes so BB7 were the best option at the time. I might swap them for Hy/Rd calipers as my next upgrade though.
jamiebae said:
Interesting stuff Pablo, I like the idea of setting up J-Rad and building the frames up here so they can be 'Made in Switzerland' and charge a MASSIVE premium over the Chinese frame set.
I'm sure mine is some other brand or manufacturers frame, I'd just like to know what before I decide if I should keep it, or break it up to build onto a steel frame and be very Swiss and buy a BMC Teammachine.
You may joke but the law around designated country of origin are pretty vague, terms like "made in" can be very miselading. IIRC its something like "the last place substantial transformation of the finished article took place" or based on finacnial percentage of the total goods. I'm sure mine is some other brand or manufacturers frame, I'd just like to know what before I decide if I should keep it, or break it up to build onto a steel frame and be very Swiss and buy a BMC Teammachine.
You will be very lucky to find out who made the Eastway, I wouldnt stress about it. Bike brands are very secretive about this sort of thing as they know it will kill their sales if they disclose the manufactuer. We will then go to the manufacturer direct if we knew and, if possible, buy from source without the mark up and still get the warranty. I have no idea who built my Cervelo but I dont really care, its a lovely bike to ride and they did a good job designing it. A manufacturer in the far east did a very good job of transforming the design into a finished article, fundamentally thats what matters more to me than the country of origin.
The main reason for trying to find out about the frame is that I'd like to know what other bikes use the same one. There's no way that a frame was designed specifically for Eastway whose production volumes will be in the low thousands as best, and when people ask what the bike is I'd like to know a bit more about it.
This is the rim brake version, which has the same frame and fork, minus the caliper mounts...
This is the rim brake version, which has the same frame and fork, minus the caliper mounts...
Dammit said:
Giant make frames for a lot of different makes - Colnago, for instance.
So it's possible, I'd be pretty happy if that was the case, Giant are very, very good at making frames.
Some Googling will probably give you a clue.
Giant supply frames for a few of the low-end race and sportive Colnagos. The proper stuff is still made in Italy and typically use carbon fiber from firms in country. The tubesets are entirely different.So it's possible, I'd be pretty happy if that was the case, Giant are very, very good at making frames.
Some Googling will probably give you a clue.
Ernesto is also on record stating that they never wanted to produce anything in Asia, but the market has forced this on a lot of the smaller brands. In this case, the mix seems a trade-off worth making to ensure the brand isn't snuffed out or turned into modern Masi or Merckx -- and they still try to offer proper sizing. Just worth clarifying.
Edited by scherzkeks on Monday 2nd February 10:52
The C60 uses tubes made in Japan which are bonded together in Italy which was part of the reason Europcar, riding Colnago, had a Japanese rider in last years tour. Its telling that more pro riders chose the M10 than the C59 too... could it be that the monocoque Colnagos made by Giant are stiffer than the lugged Italian made frames?
I find it odd that many composite parts for aircraft and racing cars originate in the far east and are subject to far more stressful environments compared to a bicycle yet for some reason we snub their bicycle making capability as inferior to Europe? If someone does something repeatedly with good results for high profile customers, they must be doing something right.
Back to the Eastway, they are square-ish tubes so thats a good starting point, the headtube taper point is quite easy to spot too. Have a search around alibaba and you might find something similar.
I find it odd that many composite parts for aircraft and racing cars originate in the far east and are subject to far more stressful environments compared to a bicycle yet for some reason we snub their bicycle making capability as inferior to Europe? If someone does something repeatedly with good results for high profile customers, they must be doing something right.
Back to the Eastway, they are square-ish tubes so thats a good starting point, the headtube taper point is quite easy to spot too. Have a search around alibaba and you might find something similar.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 2nd February 11:36
pablo said:
The C60 uses tubes made in Japan which are bonded together in Italy which was part of the reason Europcar, riding Colnago, had a Japanese rider in last years tour. Its telling that more pro riders chose the M10 than the C59 too... could it be that the monocoque Colnagos made by Giant are stiffer than the lugged Italian made frames?
I find it odd that many composite parts for aircraft and racing cars originate in the far east and are subject to far more stressful environments compared to a bicycle yet for some reason we snub their bicycle making capability as inferior to Europe? If someone does something repeatedly with good results for high profile customers, they must be doing something right.
Back to the Eastway, they are square-ish tubes so thats a good starting point, the headtube taper point is quite easy to spot too. Have a search around alibaba and you might find something similar.
I think you are missing my point. I was commenting on the fact that many Colnagos are still produced in-house,that Colnago has traditionally and still does work with European suppliers, and that it still does proper geometry and tries to avoid "T-shirt" sizing. I find it odd that many composite parts for aircraft and racing cars originate in the far east and are subject to far more stressful environments compared to a bicycle yet for some reason we snub their bicycle making capability as inferior to Europe? If someone does something repeatedly with good results for high profile customers, they must be doing something right.
Back to the Eastway, they are square-ish tubes so thats a good starting point, the headtube taper point is quite easy to spot too. Have a search around alibaba and you might find something similar.
Edited by pablo on Monday 2nd February 11:36
The M10 is a fine machine, but not (as far as I know) just an open mold creation either. It's a Colnago design and manufactured in a specific Colnago facility in Taiwan to their spec. It is not a Giant product. The Toray CF threads (not Giant made) used for this and the C59 are excellent. Could ATR have produced something to that spec? I suspect so (likely at higher cost). Does it matter? Was Columbus the sole supplier to the legendary Italian brands in their hey days? No.
Colnago is one of the few companies using outsourcing in a way that still allows it to operate as independently as it can in the face of the modern bike McMarket. It's not a bad compromise, but remains a forced one.
scherzkeks said:
I think you are missing my point. I was commenting on the fact that many Colnagos are still produced in-house,that Colnago has traditionally and still does work with European suppliers, and that it still does proper geometry and tries to avoid "T-shirt" sizing.
The M10 is a fine machine, but not (as far as I know) just an open mold creation either. It's a Colnago design and manufactured in a specific Colnago facility in Taiwan to their spec. It is not a Giant product. The Toray CF threads (not Giant made) used for this and the C59 are excellent. Could ATR have produced something to that spec? I suspect so (likely at higher cost). Does it matter? Was Columbus the sole supplier to the legendary Italian brands in their hey days? No.
Colnago is one of the few companies using outsourcing in a way that still allows it to operate as independently as it can in the face of the modern bike McMarket. It's not a bad compromise, but remains a forced one.
I think we simply differ in terms of how we are interpreting the words "many" and "produced" in the context of "many Colnagos are still produced in house" because I simply dont believe its that many. AIUI anything with lugs is bonded together (or as you say, produced) in Italy and the rest of the range is from the Far East. If you can find anything to the contrary and not just some marketing blurb on theColnago website I'd be genuinely interested. I agree with you that the M10 is almost certainly a Colango proprietary design, built to their spec albeit by a third party.... The M10 is a fine machine, but not (as far as I know) just an open mold creation either. It's a Colnago design and manufactured in a specific Colnago facility in Taiwan to their spec. It is not a Giant product. The Toray CF threads (not Giant made) used for this and the C59 are excellent. Could ATR have produced something to that spec? I suspect so (likely at higher cost). Does it matter? Was Columbus the sole supplier to the legendary Italian brands in their hey days? No.
Colnago is one of the few companies using outsourcing in a way that still allows it to operate as independently as it can in the face of the modern bike McMarket. It's not a bad compromise, but remains a forced one.
Will Colnago sell enough C60s to justify bonding them together in Italy for much longer? I doubt it. Will Colnago use the other sales from frames made in the Far East to subsidise the production costs of the C60 so they can continue to "produce" a lugged frame in Italy? probably....
In all seriousness, the manufacturers need to be honest, buyers are getting more and more savvy and want the truth, its time the industry opened up. As i said, we source aircraft composite parts from the far east, the bicycle industry is just small fry in comparison.
I thought I'd come back to this thread to close it off (of sorts).
It died.
I bought a CAAD10 and clearly it got the hump and decided to have a terminal failure, thankfully at very low speed. As you can see from the pics I wouldn't have been in a very good state had it happened at 70 kph on a descent.
The fork has failed at the point where the top caliper mount meets the leg, at the point where there is maximum pressure on the structure. Having returned the bike for assessment (still under the 2 year warranty) I was told the claim was rejected as the damage was caused by 'concentrated pressure', probably as a result of it being put in a vehicle. It's 12 months since the bike last went in a car, and if you show me a bike which can't take 'concentrated pressure' at a brake mount I'll show you a rubbish bicycle...
In the end after a lot of hassle and arguing they maintained that it was not a warranty failure, but offered to replace the fork with one off an 'ex demo' bike or a refund. I took the refund as having had one failure already I didn't want a used fork which may well just do the same thing.
So, whoever made the frame doesn't matter, just don't buy one if you do a lot of big descents!
It died.
I bought a CAAD10 and clearly it got the hump and decided to have a terminal failure, thankfully at very low speed. As you can see from the pics I wouldn't have been in a very good state had it happened at 70 kph on a descent.
The fork has failed at the point where the top caliper mount meets the leg, at the point where there is maximum pressure on the structure. Having returned the bike for assessment (still under the 2 year warranty) I was told the claim was rejected as the damage was caused by 'concentrated pressure', probably as a result of it being put in a vehicle. It's 12 months since the bike last went in a car, and if you show me a bike which can't take 'concentrated pressure' at a brake mount I'll show you a rubbish bicycle...
In the end after a lot of hassle and arguing they maintained that it was not a warranty failure, but offered to replace the fork with one off an 'ex demo' bike or a refund. I took the refund as having had one failure already I didn't want a used fork which may well just do the same thing.
So, whoever made the frame doesn't matter, just don't buy one if you do a lot of big descents!
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