Surtees Isle of Man TT record 96mph beaten by a 827 Rover..
Discussion
Just watching the John Surtees "Racing Legens" turns out on his first ever run there he won the top flight race topping the average one of 96mph --- as we all know Tony Pond used the Rover 827i Vitesse and hit 100mph average.
This bike had a top speed of well over 160mph, the car on the video shows speedo hovering at 145mph but reality is it was low to mid 130mph if you were super lucky on a downhill.
You could argue .... As is always the case on TT debates that IF there is any sort of correlation then it could indicate a vehicle with a 170mph-180mph top speed would beat a bike with a top speed of over 220mph.
As I understand it the Impreza maxed out at 160mph which would mean similar to a bike doing 190-195mph (what's the lap time of that sort of bike??)
This bike had a top speed of well over 160mph, the car on the video shows speedo hovering at 145mph but reality is it was low to mid 130mph if you were super lucky on a downhill.
You could argue .... As is always the case on TT debates that IF there is any sort of correlation then it could indicate a vehicle with a 170mph-180mph top speed would beat a bike with a top speed of over 220mph.
As I understand it the Impreza maxed out at 160mph which would mean similar to a bike doing 190-195mph (what's the lap time of that sort of bike??)
Well who knows but Surtees did his lap in the 60's whereas the Rover was a product of the 80's, by which time it wouldn't see which way bikes of that era went!
Tyres, suspension, etc. moved on so much in those 2 decades.
And if the Rover was a bit massaged to get the result, well in all the BLMC mergering they must have acquired the same people that pretended a standard E-type could do 150 mph - iirc a one-off "massaged" demonstrator provided to the press managed 150.1mph with the wind behind it!!
Maybe that is why it is now good to be bad.
Tyres, suspension, etc. moved on so much in those 2 decades.
And if the Rover was a bit massaged to get the result, well in all the BLMC mergering they must have acquired the same people that pretended a standard E-type could do 150 mph - iirc a one-off "massaged" demonstrator provided to the press managed 150.1mph with the wind behind it!!
Maybe that is why it is now good to be bad.
Mr Tidy said:
Well who knows but Surtees did his lap in the 60's whereas the Rover was a product of the 80's, by which time it wouldn't see which way bikes of that era went!
Tyres, suspension, etc. moved on so much in those 2 decades.
And if the Rover was a bit massaged to get the result, well in all the BLMC mergering they must have acquired the same people that pretended a standard E-type could do 150 mph - iirc a one-off "massaged" demonstrator provided to the press managed 150.1mph with the wind behind it!!
Maybe that is why it is now good to be bad.
Ok fair enough they should compare the time of an AC Cobra 427 the quickest car of the 1960's or the GT40 to compare against a Rover 827i 170bhp. The cobra does 0-100-0 in 11seconds it took 40 years an a LeMans edition of the MclarenF1 to beat it. Now the 0-100mph for the Rover its that what 20-22seconds then what 8 seconds + to come to a stop so 30 seconds 0-100-0 mph. So a car of the same era would utterly destroy the 100mph which that rover set Tyres, suspension, etc. moved on so much in those 2 decades.
And if the Rover was a bit massaged to get the result, well in all the BLMC mergering they must have acquired the same people that pretended a standard E-type could do 150 mph - iirc a one-off "massaged" demonstrator provided to the press managed 150.1mph with the wind behind it!!
Maybe that is why it is now good to be bad.
Not sure what sort of topic this is, I'm guess it's a 'what car is faster than a bike' one?
The current lap record is just over 132mph, Mark Higgins managed a 116mph lap, I'd suggest that it'd need to be something quite special, driven by someone very talented to have any chance. IMO the TT course will always favour a bike with it's long straights and slow bends (suiting bike acceleration).
Maybe one of the new hypercars might have a chance though.
The current lap record is just over 132mph, Mark Higgins managed a 116mph lap, I'd suggest that it'd need to be something quite special, driven by someone very talented to have any chance. IMO the TT course will always favour a bike with it's long straights and slow bends (suiting bike acceleration).
Maybe one of the new hypercars might have a chance though.
poing said:
I suspect a Lotus Elan would be faster than a 60's Cobra on that course. Top speed isn't everything.
Agreed but the cobra get to its high top speed quickly thus it gets to other lesser speeds very quickly too. Its a small car too to hustle around plus big tyre wall profile for added grip. I cannot imagine over 37 miles where on the TT course high top speed is a must an Élan would be in the same ball park as the cobra.
poing said:
I suspect a Lotus Elan would be faster than a 60's Cobra on that course. Top speed isn't everything.
Agreed but the cobra get to its high top speed quickly thus it gets to other lesser speeds very quickly too. Its a small car too to hustle around plus big tyre wall profile for added grip. I cannot imagine over 37 miles where on the TT course high top speed is a must an Élan would be in the same ball park as the cobra.
poing said:
I suspect a Lotus Elan would be faster than a 60's Cobra on that course. Top speed isn't everything.
Agreed but the cobra get to its high top speed quickly thus it gets to other lesser speeds very quickly too. Its a small car too to hustle around plus big tyre wall profile for added grip. I cannot imagine over 37 miles where on the TT course high top speed is a must an Élan would be in the same ball park as the cobra.
One competed in LeMans without that much changes from the road car the élan wasn't even a contender.
Wouldn't it be LMP1 class v GT3?
Gaz. said:
Looks like a fun way of trying it, mind you, flying down Bray Hill or over Ballaugh Bridge might literally end up flying 
.Atmospheric said:
Done to death. IBTL
Nope Surtees lap record from the 60's beaten by a mundane family back of the 80"a which in itself is ripped apart and thrown into a raging fire that is the AC cobra meaning that in its day the car would have won unless you honestly think a Rover 827i Vitesse is quicker than an ACCobra 427Ci with what 600bhp?Was the course tarmac for Surtees, did he have to shut Keppel Gate behind him??
Seriously, the course & quality of the road had improved drastically between the 60s and 80s and even more so in places now.
Not to mention the tyres & brakes - I would imagine down any normal twist road the 4 wide competition tyres and ABS disc brakes on the Rover would beat the narrow tyres & drums on Surtees MV.
Both Pond & Surtees are heros, despite the average speeds being similar, there's too many differences elsewhere.
As for people in the past suggesting 'track day' types cars, I guess they've never seen parts of the course that are brutal on suspension, also see how much 'dumbing down' was done for Anstey to run an ex-GP bike around in the classic.
If any car is going to get near the bike's record I think one must look at something that competes sucessfully in Pikes Peak.
Seriously, the course & quality of the road had improved drastically between the 60s and 80s and even more so in places now.
Not to mention the tyres & brakes - I would imagine down any normal twist road the 4 wide competition tyres and ABS disc brakes on the Rover would beat the narrow tyres & drums on Surtees MV.
Both Pond & Surtees are heros, despite the average speeds being similar, there's too many differences elsewhere.
As for people in the past suggesting 'track day' types cars, I guess they've never seen parts of the course that are brutal on suspension, also see how much 'dumbing down' was done for Anstey to run an ex-GP bike around in the classic.
If any car is going to get near the bike's record I think one must look at something that competes sucessfully in Pikes Peak.
graham22 said:
Was the course tarmac for Surtees, did he have to shut Keppel Gate behind him??
Seriously, the course & quality of the road had improved drastically between the 60s and 80s and even more so in places now.
Not to mention the tyres & brakes - I would imagine down any normal twist road the 4 wide competition tyres and ABS disc brakes on the Rover would beat the narrow tyres & drums on Surtees MV.
Both Pond & Surtees are heros, despite the average speeds being similar, there's too many differences elsewhere.
As for people in the past suggesting 'track day' types cars, I guess they've never seen parts of the course that are brutal on suspension, also see how much 'dumbing down' was done for Anstey to run an ex-GP bike around in the classic.
If any car is going to get near the bike's record I think one must look at something that competes sucessfully in Pikes Peak.
Kind of had a thread like this before the conclusion then was that a stock road bike would have the beating of pretty much any production car, yes P1's etc might be quicker top speed wise but the bumps dips & crests would hinder those kind of hyper cars but it would be close.Seriously, the course & quality of the road had improved drastically between the 60s and 80s and even more so in places now.
Not to mention the tyres & brakes - I would imagine down any normal twist road the 4 wide competition tyres and ABS disc brakes on the Rover would beat the narrow tyres & drums on Surtees MV.
Both Pond & Surtees are heros, despite the average speeds being similar, there's too many differences elsewhere.
As for people in the past suggesting 'track day' types cars, I guess they've never seen parts of the course that are brutal on suspension, also see how much 'dumbing down' was done for Anstey to run an ex-GP bike around in the classic.
If any car is going to get near the bike's record I think one must look at something that competes sucessfully in Pikes Peak.
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