Very Noisey 2.8 tappets
Discussion
I just viewed an 85 S1.5 280i. Concerned about the noisey tappets. At low speed, driving around a parking lot and standing about 100 feet away you can clearly hear the tap tap tap of the tappets over the regular engine noises. It's very loud. The car seems to start with no problems. The seller says it's always been like that since they got it, just about a year ago. In that time they have driven about 2000 miles. I've not yet driven the car so can't report on power. Obviously the tappets need adjusting but what are the potential problems the could occur from running the valves loose for 2000 miles?. Thanks.
Edited by GBinUSA on Saturday 7th February 19:37
Hi mate...The Cologne does have a noisy top end..loose valves are better than too tight!..Loose will hinder performance considerably but tight or quiet will eventually lead to a dead engine...
As long as the engine is not smoking or leaking any fluids then it is probably still okay, They are a considerably strong engine but the lack of leaded petrol will eventually lead to valve recession, Especially on long journeys.....Ziga
As long as the engine is not smoking or leaking any fluids then it is probably still okay, They are a considerably strong engine but the lack of leaded petrol will eventually lead to valve recession, Especially on long journeys.....Ziga
Yes the engine has a reputation for being tappety but shouldn't be as loud as you described, but one mans description and another could also be quite different.
I had a similar issue in a ford capri, I set the tappets but they were noisy. I check for good oil flow to the heads, no sludge and good flow, reset the tappets as per manual, still noisy.
The issue turned out to be more basic, the rockers are case hardened steel. After a lot of use, particularly if the engine hasn’t had regular oil changes or poor quality oil is used the case hardening will eventually wear through. Resulting in a concave dimple in the face of the rocker that contacts the pushrod. When you slide a feeler gauge in to check / adjust the clearance the feeler will “bridge” the dimple, resulting in a false gap measurement. The real gap will actually be greater than the one measured, hence always noisy.
Just one reason but it plagued me for an age until I took the rockers of..
I had a similar issue in a ford capri, I set the tappets but they were noisy. I check for good oil flow to the heads, no sludge and good flow, reset the tappets as per manual, still noisy.
The issue turned out to be more basic, the rockers are case hardened steel. After a lot of use, particularly if the engine hasn’t had regular oil changes or poor quality oil is used the case hardening will eventually wear through. Resulting in a concave dimple in the face of the rocker that contacts the pushrod. When you slide a feeler gauge in to check / adjust the clearance the feeler will “bridge” the dimple, resulting in a false gap measurement. The real gap will actually be greater than the one measured, hence always noisy.
Just one reason but it plagued me for an age until I took the rockers of..
As above - Colognes are better rattling a little than not at all, ESPECIALLY with unleaded gas.
What I would add though, is that if you can hear a particular tap-tap at idle, it's probably only one or two which are really bad, others might be OK.
Agree with above too, after a while the tappet head gets some wear, and then using standard feeler gauges doesn't work correctly, as they bridge over the wear area, so clearance is actually too big.
I try to use just the very tip of the feeler gauge, and check afterwards with my fingers - after a while you can get very good at estimating just by rocking with your fingers....it's not exact, but it DOES allow for the wear.
Things to check
Be suspicious that oil hasn't been changed regularly - so ....
Check oil is clean. Dodgy oil will wear out the tappets.
If you can, with owner's permission, take both rocker covers off - you CAN do this without dismantling any of the injection or plenum, but it's a bit tricky to get at the bolts and slide the cover out.
Check valves have oil on them - it's not all that unusual for engine to gum up its supply hole(s) to rocker shaft. If do look oiled, then it could just be the clearances. if they look dry, or caked with black gunk, walk away.
If you can't - shine a torch down the filler - early ones have shorter oil filler, you can see no 1 valves, but later ones I don't think you can. If you can see oil, it's a good sign, but it only checks one side..
All the engines should rattle a little bit, but not so loud that it's audible with the bonnet shut....well, perhaps just about audible stood next to car...but not much more than that.
NB if it's got a steel cam gear, that DOES tend to make the tappets a bit noisier - but owner may not know whether it has one. (It's a good thing to have a steel cam gear)
What I would add though, is that if you can hear a particular tap-tap at idle, it's probably only one or two which are really bad, others might be OK.
Agree with above too, after a while the tappet head gets some wear, and then using standard feeler gauges doesn't work correctly, as they bridge over the wear area, so clearance is actually too big.
I try to use just the very tip of the feeler gauge, and check afterwards with my fingers - after a while you can get very good at estimating just by rocking with your fingers....it's not exact, but it DOES allow for the wear.
Things to check
Be suspicious that oil hasn't been changed regularly - so ....
Check oil is clean. Dodgy oil will wear out the tappets.
If you can, with owner's permission, take both rocker covers off - you CAN do this without dismantling any of the injection or plenum, but it's a bit tricky to get at the bolts and slide the cover out.
Check valves have oil on them - it's not all that unusual for engine to gum up its supply hole(s) to rocker shaft. If do look oiled, then it could just be the clearances. if they look dry, or caked with black gunk, walk away.
If you can't - shine a torch down the filler - early ones have shorter oil filler, you can see no 1 valves, but later ones I don't think you can. If you can see oil, it's a good sign, but it only checks one side..
All the engines should rattle a little bit, but not so loud that it's audible with the bonnet shut....well, perhaps just about audible stood next to car...but not much more than that.
NB if it's got a steel cam gear, that DOES tend to make the tappets a bit noisier - but owner may not know whether it has one. (It's a good thing to have a steel cam gear)
Edited by RCK974X on Saturday 7th February 22:32
I should imagine time wise anything from an hour onwards...Its highly recommended that you get your hands on a haynes manual or similiar and read fully the relevant section. Each valve clearance must be set with the engine at the correct position for that cylinder. It is vital you get this exactly right. Good advice above about oil....Although as said i don't think they should be extra loud..Could be a sign that its been thrashed/Driven hard..Unfortunately its always a bit of a gamble with older cars..Can you get a sneaky video of it running?.....
Edited by mrzigazaga on Saturday 7th February 22:48
All good input, thanks.....
I am familiar with mechanics, formerly owned and self maintained a Lotus a Esprit S1 - timing belts, overhead cams etc....
I just am not up on the cologne engine. This particular S1.5 is a bit of a find and is really in great condition cosmetically.. The engine compartment and interior are in super nice. Apart from some wear on the driver's seat and that just needs a good leather reconditioning. It has all the original manuals. Both original covers for the spare and the roof panel and even has the original clarion stereo in a box. It was owned by the original purchaser until is death about a year or so ago.
I am so tempted to buy it but it was really noisey and could be heard a long way off. I'm going back for a second look tomorrow and hope to do a block test and get the car on a lift.
Here's some pics to wet the appertite.....
I am familiar with mechanics, formerly owned and self maintained a Lotus a Esprit S1 - timing belts, overhead cams etc....
I just am not up on the cologne engine. This particular S1.5 is a bit of a find and is really in great condition cosmetically.. The engine compartment and interior are in super nice. Apart from some wear on the driver's seat and that just needs a good leather reconditioning. It has all the original manuals. Both original covers for the spare and the roof panel and even has the original clarion stereo in a box. It was owned by the original purchaser until is death about a year or so ago.
I am so tempted to buy it but it was really noisey and could be heard a long way off. I'm going back for a second look tomorrow and hope to do a block test and get the car on a lift.
Here's some pics to wet the appertite.....
Edited by GBinUSA on Sunday 8th February 00:54
Edited by GBinUSA on Sunday 8th February 00:59
Just a couple of points. There are bolt heads on the bulk head under the bonet that are sprayed red. Unless I'm mistaken these were not body colour from new and indicates after production spray work and also the drivers seat, to me doesn't look consistent to 32000 miles. This is just my opinion.
Tony. TCB.
Tony. TCB.
All the 84 and 85 280i that I have seen here in the States, not sure about the 86 cars, have those three bulkhead bolts painted. I too at first thought it was an indication of a repaint but after researching i found it common on all those year cars. The easiest reference was the 3000 mile FHC that I tried to buy a few months ago.
The seat is a little worn agreed but the stitching is all still tight and strong. With some leatherique I'm pretty sure it can be refreshed. if you look at the carpet and the pedal pads, the wear on those is consistent with the mileage. A common trend I've noticed is that the seats in the earlier cars don't hold up very well. Seen many lower mileage cars with seat covers. But really the bottom seat cushion is the only thing you can find to fault on the interior. The rest is perfect. The veneer is excellent both on the dash and the door handles.
Two things to add re the tappet noise.....I pulled the dipstick and the oil was clean but down near the MIN mark. It didn't smell of any thing and I was told that it had about 2000 miles on it. So a top off is needed. I'm not sure of the brand and what weight. 2nd thing, I noticed that the oil pressure gauge looks to have been replaced. I say that because the writing on the face of the dial is different to other 280i cars. All the gsuges are VDO. Also it's not functioning. Turn on the ignition and the gauge spikes all the way over to past max. So it's possible that a wrongly calibrated gauge was installed or the sender is bad. So right now the only way to check for good pressure is by mechanical gauge which I have not yet done so or am likely to be able to.
It goes up on the rack in a few hours so we'll see what it's like underneath. I do know it has the grey non setting powder coat finish.
The seat is a little worn agreed but the stitching is all still tight and strong. With some leatherique I'm pretty sure it can be refreshed. if you look at the carpet and the pedal pads, the wear on those is consistent with the mileage. A common trend I've noticed is that the seats in the earlier cars don't hold up very well. Seen many lower mileage cars with seat covers. But really the bottom seat cushion is the only thing you can find to fault on the interior. The rest is perfect. The veneer is excellent both on the dash and the door handles.
Two things to add re the tappet noise.....I pulled the dipstick and the oil was clean but down near the MIN mark. It didn't smell of any thing and I was told that it had about 2000 miles on it. So a top off is needed. I'm not sure of the brand and what weight. 2nd thing, I noticed that the oil pressure gauge looks to have been replaced. I say that because the writing on the face of the dial is different to other 280i cars. All the gsuges are VDO. Also it's not functioning. Turn on the ignition and the gauge spikes all the way over to past max. So it's possible that a wrongly calibrated gauge was installed or the sender is bad. So right now the only way to check for good pressure is by mechanical gauge which I have not yet done so or am likely to be able to.
It goes up on the rack in a few hours so we'll see what it's like underneath. I do know it has the grey non setting powder coat finish.
Edited by GBinUSA on Sunday 8th February 14:14
1st off providing the engine is not suffering from the black deaf/sludge and the rocker oil feed is not blocked there is no reason for the Cologne to be noisy/tappety at all 
I ran one for years and maintained many 2.8/2.9's the 11mm tappet adjusting screws are interference ball studs so a Click Adjust type valve clearance tool can not be used, its a very straight forward engine to adjust valve clearances on using nothing more than a bell push or unused Ford reverse light switch and a bit of cable on the starter motor trigger wire to battery pos + with the key out of the ignition of course 
turn the engine over by flicking the button on your DIY cranking tool until the rocker arm to be adjusted is on full valve lift noting the (remove cap 1st) rotor arm position (rotates at the same rate/speed as the camshaft) now flick your switch again until the rotor arm as rotated a further 180 degrees this is then on the cam heel and ready to adjust 
you continue to do this for the other 11 valves this is a very accurate way of carrying out valve clearance adjustment once the rocker covers are off should take no more than 20 minutes with a ratchet and socket dont use a spanner as you increase the side loadings on the adjusters when pulling and they can round off or worse shear 
this will make more sense when your hands on the job of course this is all dependent on decent rocker tips shaft wear and cam & follower condition so results may differ.
I ran one for years and maintained many 2.8/2.9's the 11mm tappet adjusting screws are interference ball studs so a Click Adjust type valve clearance tool can not be used, its a very straight forward engine to adjust valve clearances on using nothing more than a bell push or unused Ford reverse light switch and a bit of cable on the starter motor trigger wire to battery pos + with the key out of the ignition of course turn the engine over by flicking the button on your DIY cranking tool until the rocker arm to be adjusted is on full valve lift noting the (remove cap 1st) rotor arm position (rotates at the same rate/speed as the camshaft) now flick your switch again until the rotor arm as rotated a further 180 degrees this is then on the cam heel and ready to adjust you continue to do this for the other 11 valves this is a very accurate way of carrying out valve clearance adjustment once the rocker covers are off should take no more than 20 minutes with a ratchet and socket dont use a spanner as you increase the side loadings on the adjusters when pulling and they can round off or worse shear this will make more sense when your hands on the job of course this is all dependent on decent rocker tips shaft wear and cam & follower condition so results may differ.Edited by Sardonicus on Sunday 8th February 16:52
Thanks for the info Simon...
Unfortunately another car gets away. Having had it on the lift the car's underside lacks somwhat behind it's exterior.
The outriggers were suspect and for the price being asked they needed to be solid.
I tried to educate the seller on the protential problems but although they said they understood what I was saying, they were not willing to adjust the asking price to reflect possible chassis repairs. We hadn't even got to the engine noise. So I walked. They wanted top money and it wasn't a top money car. Oh, one of the rear silencers was rusted out and a very prominent fuel smell at the rear.
Jeeez, people really think thier sh** is worth more than it really is.
Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated.
Unfortunately another car gets away. Having had it on the lift the car's underside lacks somwhat behind it's exterior.
The outriggers were suspect and for the price being asked they needed to be solid.
I tried to educate the seller on the protential problems but although they said they understood what I was saying, they were not willing to adjust the asking price to reflect possible chassis repairs. We hadn't even got to the engine noise. So I walked. They wanted top money and it wasn't a top money car. Oh, one of the rear silencers was rusted out and a very prominent fuel smell at the rear.
Jeeez, people really think thier sh** is worth more than it really is.
Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated.
Just for info.
My wedge (1982) always smells of fuel when its filled up, and I can't any leaks - have checked it several times.
It's worst at the back on pass. side (driver's side for USA)
I do see that the filler pipe is almost horizontal, which I don't think helps much.
So don't be too critical of fuel smells, it comes with the car.
Good call on the underneath though !!
My wedge (1982) always smells of fuel when its filled up, and I can't any leaks - have checked it several times.
It's worst at the back on pass. side (driver's side for USA)
I do see that the filler pipe is almost horizontal, which I don't think helps much.
So don't be too critical of fuel smells, it comes with the car.
Good call on the underneath though !!
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