Rejecting a BMW (main dealer) - help
Discussion
I would seriously consider standing outside their dealership on public property and handing out a flyer detailing the difficulties that you've had with a car sold by them. That's what I'd do.
As I know one or two local journalists I'd invite one of those along as well. They like a good story for the local paper.
Trust me, the manager will probably be available on that day.
As I know one or two local journalists I'd invite one of those along as well. They like a good story for the local paper.
Trust me, the manager will probably be available on that day.
Mattknight1984 said:
All windows lowering by themselves when locked at random.
Difficult to get into reverse.
Judders when pulling away and hesitates under acceleration.
Screen washers don't work (reports bottle empty when it isn't)
Start stop reports inoperable .
Difficult to get into reverse.
Judders when pulling away and hesitates under acceleration.
Screen washers don't work (reports bottle empty when it isn't)
Start stop reports inoperable .
- The windows thing could be the "unlock" button on the key being pressed (and held down). This unlocks the car, and then winds all the windows down. Happens all the time with keys in bags/ pockets.
- Difficult to get into reverse -- on a manual car, the reverse lockout on the gearbox is inertia based. Basically, moving it fast will get you reverse. Moving it slowly and with a lot of force will get you a broken gear linkage.
- Judders when pulling away - Is this at low revs, or what?
- Screen washer not working is a new one to me.
- Start/stop can report inoperable for a couple of reasons. Does you car have comfort access (ie. can you start the car without the key in the ignition?) In normal use, it will not do the "auto stop" part of stop/stat below 5 C ambient, or when the engine is cold, or when the battery charge state is too low. It doesn't report any of these though, it simply doesn't stop the engine. It does report that it's inoperable when various driver/useage induced things happen (stall the engine, etc).
Mattknight1984 said:
Hi all,
We bought a 2012 1 series on 11k on 24/9/14 for £17500. Almost immediately we noticed issues with the steering and rattles when cold. It has been back for repairs multiple times with no work done - "these noises are within manufacturers tolerances". This seems crazy to us, the rattle is awful, especially when cold and the steering clunks quite loudly at low speeds and pulls to one side etc. The car was also sold to us with no air in the tyres (run flats).
Since then it has developed at least another 10 faults including:
All windows lowering by themselves when locked at random.
Difficult to get into reverse.
Judders when pulling away and hesitates under acceleration.
Screen washers don't work (reports bottle empty when it isn't)
Start stop reports inoperable .
We have had enough and just want rid now. We are currently waiting on the sales manager to call us back but it's really hard work. Been to the dealer multiple times and quite often "sorry the person who can help isn't in today" etc etc. Aarrghhh!
Has anyone been through this before and could offer a few pointers?
Many thanks in advance,
Matt
Car does sound a bit duff but I think some items may be simple to clear up.We bought a 2012 1 series on 11k on 24/9/14 for £17500. Almost immediately we noticed issues with the steering and rattles when cold. It has been back for repairs multiple times with no work done - "these noises are within manufacturers tolerances". This seems crazy to us, the rattle is awful, especially when cold and the steering clunks quite loudly at low speeds and pulls to one side etc. The car was also sold to us with no air in the tyres (run flats).
Since then it has developed at least another 10 faults including:
All windows lowering by themselves when locked at random.
Difficult to get into reverse.
Judders when pulling away and hesitates under acceleration.
Screen washers don't work (reports bottle empty when it isn't)
Start stop reports inoperable .
We have had enough and just want rid now. We are currently waiting on the sales manager to call us back but it's really hard work. Been to the dealer multiple times and quite often "sorry the person who can help isn't in today" etc etc. Aarrghhh!
Has anyone been through this before and could offer a few pointers?
Many thanks in advance,
Matt
Start/Stop only works when the engine is warm, battery has plenty of juice and outside temp is above 3C.
If you hold the unlock button on the remote for too long it drops all the windows. It's not uncommon for people to sit on their keys and come back to all their windows down (or on a convertible the roof being off).
The juddering was a common fault on the 4cyl diesel 3 series models. I would expect it to have been ironed out for a 2012 1 series. It was rectified by a revised pressure plate in the clutch which was done under warranty.
In any BMW with the shortened MSport gearstick I've always found reverse a little hard to grab. Requires more force than you expect.
I think there's a synchro on reverse with that car so if the problem is intermittent it could be related to that. I have heard people having a similar problem with 1st gear and that was the solution.
If it were my car I would take it in and demonstrate all the issues to the mechanic and expect them sorted under warranty.
Rejecting a used car is never as simple as many claim it to be. Dealers do not want old, now over valued, stock back if they can avoid it.
If the faults you mention were present at time of sale and you have a record of your contact with the dealer and BMW this will put you in a much stronger position. If you haven't already done so then begin to document every occurrence of a fault or contact with the dealer as this will form part of your argument when trading standards become involved.
From the dealers website you should be able to trace the DP's email address and from BMW's you should find a customer service email. Write to the DP and explain the events that have led to this point, including perceived poor service and failure to return calls, cc BMW. When you make contact be sure to remain calm, be rational and reasonable but also be clear that you will be contacting your local trading standards office in (x) days if a resolution cannot be agreed. In no circumstances should you lose you temper or become aggressive, however tempting it may be.
Whilst some of the noises you mention may be within the tolerances of BMW the other faults you list are not what you would expect of a relatively expensive vehicle from a premium brand. That said I would struggle to see any of the faults justifying a rejection as they do not make the car unfit for purpose, the crux of rejection. Whilst individually each fault is a nuisance and collectively they are a nightmare for you the dealer may choose to fight a rejection.
Whilst BMW are correct that your contract is with the dealer I am assuming the car is still under the BMW warranty. The dealership are the agent for that warranty and if they will not provide the service you need BMW will at least refer you to the next closest dealer for work. If however the faults were present at the time of sale then (I am not familiar with BMW warranties) they would normally fall out with the warranty cover.
I spent 15 years in the motor trade, ultimately as a DP, and learned that when a customer reaches the point of utter despair and has no faith left in the vehicle it was often cheaper, both financially and in terms of hassle, to bite the bullet and write a cheque.
Finally, if you do end up rejecting the vehicle, you can expect the dealer to insist on a replacement instead of a refund and that you will be expected to make a contribution, through a deduction in value, for the use you have had of the vehicle.
If the faults you mention were present at time of sale and you have a record of your contact with the dealer and BMW this will put you in a much stronger position. If you haven't already done so then begin to document every occurrence of a fault or contact with the dealer as this will form part of your argument when trading standards become involved.
From the dealers website you should be able to trace the DP's email address and from BMW's you should find a customer service email. Write to the DP and explain the events that have led to this point, including perceived poor service and failure to return calls, cc BMW. When you make contact be sure to remain calm, be rational and reasonable but also be clear that you will be contacting your local trading standards office in (x) days if a resolution cannot be agreed. In no circumstances should you lose you temper or become aggressive, however tempting it may be.
Whilst some of the noises you mention may be within the tolerances of BMW the other faults you list are not what you would expect of a relatively expensive vehicle from a premium brand. That said I would struggle to see any of the faults justifying a rejection as they do not make the car unfit for purpose, the crux of rejection. Whilst individually each fault is a nuisance and collectively they are a nightmare for you the dealer may choose to fight a rejection.
Whilst BMW are correct that your contract is with the dealer I am assuming the car is still under the BMW warranty. The dealership are the agent for that warranty and if they will not provide the service you need BMW will at least refer you to the next closest dealer for work. If however the faults were present at the time of sale then (I am not familiar with BMW warranties) they would normally fall out with the warranty cover.
I spent 15 years in the motor trade, ultimately as a DP, and learned that when a customer reaches the point of utter despair and has no faith left in the vehicle it was often cheaper, both financially and in terms of hassle, to bite the bullet and write a cheque.
Finally, if you do end up rejecting the vehicle, you can expect the dealer to insist on a replacement instead of a refund and that you will be expected to make a contribution, through a deduction in value, for the use you have had of the vehicle.
Mattknight1984 said:
- the rattle is awful, especially when cold
- the steering clunks quite loudly at low speeds and pulls to one side etc
Steering clunking on video would be good too.
Steering pulling one way or another can be as simple as the road having a crown, or the tracking/geo being out. Take it somewhere really flat (eg. big carpark) and check this. Typical roads drain from the middle to each side via the crown, so most roads in the UK have the right hand side wheels higher than the left. The same thing makes most cars pull left a little (very gentle, typically).
zimzoom said:
Smack them with the sale of goods act? Product is not fit for purpose and as such you want to return the product and get a refund.
Clearly you have given them ample opportunity to fix these with absolutely nothing done, they don't have a leg to stand on.
I'm not sure those faults make the vehicle unfit.Clearly you have given them ample opportunity to fix these with absolutely nothing done, they don't have a leg to stand on.
Certainly not what you would expect from a car with such low mileage but it still works.
I think unfit for purpose is something you can throw out when the car spends more time on the back of a recovery truck than on the road.
Klippie said:
Your local trading standards office will help you out, a few years back I had to reject a new Scirroco my local office bent over backwards to point me in the right direction with the correct terminology to use.
The key part there is "a few years back".Edited by Sheepshanks on Sunday 8th February 21:34
CarAbuser said:
I'm not sure those faults make the vehicle unfit.
Certainly not what you would expect from a car with such low mileage but it still works.
I think unfit for purpose is something you can throw out when the car spends more time on the back of a recovery truck than on the road.
If you argue your point correctly then it can be. For example the windows opening at random. It's a security risk, you can't leave anything in your car as anyone walking past has access to it. A part of the a cars locking function is that the car is secure.Certainly not what you would expect from a car with such low mileage but it still works.
I think unfit for purpose is something you can throw out when the car spends more time on the back of a recovery truck than on the road.
The question is can you argue it in a way that would be enough for a court to find in your favour, if not, then it's not worth going down that street.
zimzoom said:
CarAbuser said:
I'm not sure those faults make the vehicle unfit.
Certainly not what you would expect from a car with such low mileage but it still works.
I think unfit for purpose is something you can throw out when the car spends more time on the back of a recovery truck than on the road.
If you argue your point correctly then it can be. For example the windows opening at random. It's a security risk, you can't leave anything in your car as anyone walking past has access to it. A part of the a cars locking function is that the car is secure.Certainly not what you would expect from a car with such low mileage but it still works.
I think unfit for purpose is something you can throw out when the car spends more time on the back of a recovery truck than on the road.
The question is can you argue it in a way that would be enough for a court to find in your favour, if not, then it's not worth going down that street.
The only other feature of the car that would unlock and wind the windows down is if the inertia switch was being tripped.
zimzoom said:
If you argue your point correctly then it can be. For example the windows opening at random. It's a security risk, you can't leave anything in your car as anyone walking past has access to it. A part of the a cars locking function is that the car is secure.
The question is can you argue it in a way that would be enough for a court to find in your favour, if not, then it's not worth going down that street.
Are you a lawyer or just another legal 'expert' on pistonheads? The question is can you argue it in a way that would be enough for a court to find in your favour, if not, then it's not worth going down that street.
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