Can't Use Hard Shoulder

[helidan]

Hey guys, first post here on PH!

Anyway, there's something I've been wondering about quite recently and wanted to hear some opinions.

Traditionally the motorway hard shoulder is intended for emergency use but it is now increasingly being used as a lane to drive in, often part of these so called smart/managed motorways etc.

If someone was to have some sort of incident which requires the use of the hard shoulder but they couldn't actually use it (lets say it was currently in use as part of active traffic management) and a serious incident occurred as a result of being unable to get out of the way of fast moving traffic coming from behind would the motorway operator be in any way liable?

I understand some of the reasoning behind the way the hard shoulder is being used nowadays but I must admit I do get a bit uneasy whenever it is not available for emergency use.

Btw, apologies if this is in the wrong section.

[so called]

There are lay-by's on these sections from what I've seen but I have thought along the same lines as you regarding safety and liability.
I someone runs up the back of you I guess its their fault but that might be the least of your problems if that occurs.

[kambites]

There should be no situations where the lack of hard shoulder can directly cause an accident. After all, non-motorway dual-carriageways without hard shoulders seem to work.

I really wouldn't want to break down on a section of motorway without one, though.

[Munter]

Unlike a dual-carriage way. The managed motorways only open the hard shoulder when the speed limit has been lowered. Most often to 50. And they are monitored by cameras which spot stationary cars and close the lane. And there are (as said above), "laybys" which vehicles in trouble can pull into out of the way.

[romeogolf]

As Munter has said, the hard shoulder is only used as a running lane when the speed limit has been lowered. So it's much the same as a dual carriageway.

[witko999]

The hard shoulder on the M62 between Huddersfield and Bradford has been turned into a permanent live lane with the 'smart' motorway.

Last week this happened:

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news...

[IanCress]

witko999 said:

The hard shoulder on the M62 between Huddersfield and Bradford has been turned into a permanent live lane with the 'smart' motorway.

Last week this happened:

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news...

And yet people will still swear that there's nothing wrong with using the hard shoulder as a live lane, and that all motorists obey the red X's above the lanes.

I can imagine how easily this could happen. Vehicle breaks down and sits stationary in the inside lane. Red X's come on, people in the inside lane start looking over their shoulder to find a gap in the already busy traffic. Vehicles hit the stationary vehicle whilst trying to move over.

[Challo]

IanCress said:

witko999 said:

The hard shoulder on the M62 between Huddersfield and Bradford has been turned into a permanent live lane with the 'smart' motorway.

Last week this happened:

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news...

And yet people will still swear that there's nothing wrong with using the hard shoulder as a live lane, and that all motorists obey the red X's above the lanes.

I can imagine how easily this could happen. Vehicle breaks down and sits stationary in the inside lane. Red X's come on, people in the inside lane start looking over their shoulder to find a gap in the already busy traffic. Vehicles hit the stationary vehicle whilst trying to move over.

Are you not advised that if you have broken down and are on the hard shoulder you should exit your vehicle and stand on the embankment or behind the railings awaiting recovery?

Would this not have been avoided if the driver had done that?

[KarlMac]

Challo said:

Are you not advised that if you have broken down and are on the hard shoulder you should exit your vehicle and stand on the embankment or behind the railings awaiting recovery?

Would this not have been avoided if the driver had done that?

Sounds like the driver was in the process of doing this.

Absolutely no suprise he was hit by a HGV.

[Swanny87]

Challo said:

IanCress said:

witko999 said:

The hard shoulder on the M62 between Huddersfield and Bradford has been turned into a permanent live lane with the 'smart' motorway.

Last week this happened:

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news...

And yet people will still swear that there's nothing wrong with using the hard shoulder as a live lane, and that all motorists obey the red X's above the lanes.

I can imagine how easily this could happen. Vehicle breaks down and sits stationary in the inside lane. Red X's come on, people in the inside lane start looking over their shoulder to find a gap in the already busy traffic. Vehicles hit the stationary vehicle whilst trying to move over.

Are you not advised that if you have broken down and are on the hard shoulder you should exit your vehicle and stand on the embankment or behind the railings awaiting recovery?

Would this not have been avoided if the driver had done that?

Does it not say in that article that the Jeep was struck as the driver was moving across to the passenger side to get out? I don't see these smart motorways being that much more dangerous. Someone could drift into the hard shoulder on a normal motorway anyway. I saw a vehicle stationary in L3 on a motorway once but I managed to avoid it by paying attention. This is the fault of the lorry driver not doing so, not because it was a smart motorway...

Edited by Swanny87 on Monday 9th February 16:24

[witko999]

Swanny87 said:

Does it not say in that article that the Jeep was struck as the driver was moving across to the passenger side to get out? I don't see these smart motorways being that much more dangerous. Someone could drift into the hard shoulder on a normal motorway anyway. I saw a vehicle stationary in L3 on a motorway once but I managed to avoid it by paying attention. This is the fault of the lorry driver not doing so, not because it was a smart motorway...

Edited by Swanny87 on Monday 9th February 16:24

True but the accident would have most likely not have happened if there was a hard shoulder. There will always be plenty of people paying minimal attention.

[Elroy Blue]

The brain that came up with 'smart' motorways wasn't smart enough to consider how do Emergency services get to the scene of an incident when there are four lanes of stationary nose to tail traffic.

Having been in that very situation of trying to get to incident (which was a fatal), there were some choice words said about the concept.

[Swanny87]

witko999 said:

True but the accident would have most likely not have happened if there was a hard shoulder. There will always be plenty of people paying minimal attention.

Yes, but you'd have to be a proper dunce to not notice a stopped Jeep in lane ahead of you from a higher viewpoint. I understand that may not be so easy in a car but I still think a person with two brain cells would manage to avoid it somehow.

[anonymous-user]

Swanny87 said:

Yes, but you'd have to be a proper dunce to not notice a stopped Jeep in lane ahead of you from a higher viewpoint. I understand that may not be so easy in a car but I still think a person with two brain cells would manage to avoid it somehow.

Newsflash - "professional drivers" are often not the sharpest tool in the box.

[helidan]

Elroy Blue said:

The brain that came up with 'smart' motorways wasn't smart enough to consider how do Emergency services get to the scene of an incident when there are four lanes of stationary nose to tail traffic.

Having been in that very situation of trying to get to incident (which was a fatal), there were some choice words said about the concept.

A very valid point, fair enough on roads that were never built with hard shoulders but I understand the frustration of not being able to make swift progress to an incident due to the HS being used for other purposes.

[helidan]

dme123 said:

Newsflash - "professional drivers" are often not the sharpest tool in the box.

Agreed!!

[PorscheGT4]

witko999 said:

The hard shoulder on the M62 between Huddersfield and Bradford has been turned into a permanent live lane with the 'smart' motorway.

Last week this happened:

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news...

yes we are going to see a lot more of those, scary

[Swanny87]

dme123 said:

Newsflash - "professional drivers" are often not the sharpest tool in the box.

Let's not turn this into 'lorry drivers/taxi drivers etc... hatred' thread... I'm pretty sure there's some mentally capable ones out there

[skyrover]

The hard shoulder is an incredibly important part of safe motorway operation... remember speeds and traffic volumes are much higher on motorways.

The reason they are so safe is due to traffic separation and maintaining similar speeds.

The Americans actually by law are required to have two shoulders... an inner and an outer, while we manage with just an outer.

[OvalOwl]

PorscheGT4 said:

witko999 said:

The hard shoulder on the M62 between Huddersfield and Bradford has been turned into a permanent live lane with the 'smart' motorway.

Last week this happened:

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news...

yes we are going to see a lot more of those, scary

Number one rule if broken down on the motorway:

Get out of the car.

Vehicles get hit in the hard shoulder even when it is not a running lane.