X73. Harsher or less harsh than PASM in Sports Mode
Discussion
Yes I know the subject has been done to death in other threads (all of which I have read) but please bear with me.
I currently drive a 981 Cayman S and am about to finalise the spec for a 981 Cayman GTS. Only major decision still to make is regarding the suspension. The majority of my driving is on typical UK A and B roads with the odd track day now and again.
Current car has PASM. In Normal Mode it seems to cope exceptionally well with most road conditions, even on the twisty bits. Sports Mode, whilst just about bearable on typical A and B Roads seems a bit harsh and bouncy compared to Normal Mode. On track, Sports Mode is usually the better choice.
Safe bet would be to stick with PASM. However it would seem unwise to ignore the chorus of satisfied users of X73 who claim it to be the better choice, not just for track, but for road too.
My dilemma arises from the fact that some users of X73 claim that it is less harsh that PASM in Sports Mode. Others claim the opposite.
If the former was true, I would probably change to X73 to gain the benefit of better handling. However if the latter was true, I would probably stick with PASM rather than suffer a ride that I personally considered unacceptable (i.e. harsher than PASM Sport) for the majority of daily driving.
So my specific question to those who have tried both is do you consider X73 to be more harsh or less harsh than PASM in Sports Mode - and if so roughly by how much? And leaving practicality aside (speed bump capability etc), are there any other points that ought to be factored in to the decision?
Would appreciate your advice
PS:
Am trying to get a test drive in an X73 GTS but X73 demonstrators seem to be scarce on the ground.
I currently drive a 981 Cayman S and am about to finalise the spec for a 981 Cayman GTS. Only major decision still to make is regarding the suspension. The majority of my driving is on typical UK A and B roads with the odd track day now and again.
Current car has PASM. In Normal Mode it seems to cope exceptionally well with most road conditions, even on the twisty bits. Sports Mode, whilst just about bearable on typical A and B Roads seems a bit harsh and bouncy compared to Normal Mode. On track, Sports Mode is usually the better choice.
Safe bet would be to stick with PASM. However it would seem unwise to ignore the chorus of satisfied users of X73 who claim it to be the better choice, not just for track, but for road too.
My dilemma arises from the fact that some users of X73 claim that it is less harsh that PASM in Sports Mode. Others claim the opposite.
If the former was true, I would probably change to X73 to gain the benefit of better handling. However if the latter was true, I would probably stick with PASM rather than suffer a ride that I personally considered unacceptable (i.e. harsher than PASM Sport) for the majority of daily driving.
So my specific question to those who have tried both is do you consider X73 to be more harsh or less harsh than PASM in Sports Mode - and if so roughly by how much? And leaving practicality aside (speed bump capability etc), are there any other points that ought to be factored in to the decision?
Would appreciate your advice
PS:
Am trying to get a test drive in an X73 GTS but X73 demonstrators seem to be scarce on the ground.
I had a good drive out in the GTS Boxster demo car at Newcastle OPC that has sport suspension and found it to be fine.
It was hard to say if it was better than my own Cayman with PASM, probably a personal choice in the end.
Know that doesn't help but I think I would be happy to go with passive sports if buying new
It was hard to say if it was better than my own Cayman with PASM, probably a personal choice in the end.
Know that doesn't help but I think I would be happy to go with passive sports if buying new
I've just jumped out of a Boxster 987.2 with PASM and into a Cayman GTS with PASM and the Cayman's sport setting does seem better than the 987's sport setting, not as harsh ...probably of no help but I was pleasantly suprised that even though the ride was firmer it didn't crash over the bumps like the 987 did
When I had my experience day at Silverstone, I had two things I wanted to confirm before my order was locked down.
1. X73 or PASM
2. PCCB or Normal Brakes
This is what I wrote about the two of them back in November:
Suspension:
So first off, I took out the sports chassis car and didn't know what to expect as these are fix rate springs and dampers as well as other chassis tweaks. I was pleasantly surprised how comprised the car was. Its firm but its not crashy as I was expecting really. Even on the country lanes, its a firm ride but it hands the road really well and a huge plus is the epic feed back from the steering wheel.
Next I took out a PASM car, even before I go to the track I could feel the difference. The car seemed to roll and wallow and bit more and also didn't turn in as nice as the sports chassis setup. However, the biggest thing for me really was the feel of the steering as it just felt numb in comparison to the other setup.
So my finial choice there was the Sport Chassis.
Brakes:
This was another area where I was pleasantly surprised, as I have read loads of comments about the carbon setups so was unsure what expect. In short thought I found them to give a much greater braking feel and they seems to brake the same as the steels but with less effort. Then going back to a car with the steel breaks, the peddle felt numb again and also required more effort to achieve the same braking results.
1. X73 or PASM
2. PCCB or Normal Brakes
This is what I wrote about the two of them back in November:
Suspension:
So first off, I took out the sports chassis car and didn't know what to expect as these are fix rate springs and dampers as well as other chassis tweaks. I was pleasantly surprised how comprised the car was. Its firm but its not crashy as I was expecting really. Even on the country lanes, its a firm ride but it hands the road really well and a huge plus is the epic feed back from the steering wheel.
Next I took out a PASM car, even before I go to the track I could feel the difference. The car seemed to roll and wallow and bit more and also didn't turn in as nice as the sports chassis setup. However, the biggest thing for me really was the feel of the steering as it just felt numb in comparison to the other setup.
So my finial choice there was the Sport Chassis.
Brakes:
This was another area where I was pleasantly surprised, as I have read loads of comments about the carbon setups so was unsure what expect. In short thought I found them to give a much greater braking feel and they seems to brake the same as the steels but with less effort. Then going back to a car with the steel breaks, the peddle felt numb again and also required more effort to achieve the same braking results.
AndyCGTS said:
When I had my experience day at Silverstone, I had two things I wanted to confirm before my order was locked down.
1. X73 or PASM
2. PCCB or Normal Brakes
This is what I wrote about the two of them back in November:
Suspension:
So first off, I took out the sports chassis car and didn't know what to expect as these are fix rate springs and dampers as well as other chassis tweaks. I was pleasantly surprised how comprised the car was. Its firm but its not crashy as I was expecting really. Even on the country lanes, its a firm ride but it hands the road really well and a huge plus is the epic feed back from the steering wheel.
Next I took out a PASM car, even before I go to the track I could feel the difference. The car seemed to roll and wallow and bit more and also didn't turn in as nice as the sports chassis setup. However, the biggest thing for me really was the feel of the steering as it just felt numb in comparison to the other setup.
So my finial choice there was the Sport Chassis.
Brakes:
This was another area where I was pleasantly surprised, as I have read loads of comments about the carbon setups so was unsure what expect. In short thought I found them to give a much greater braking feel and they seems to brake the same as the steels but with less effort. Then going back to a car with the steel breaks, the peddle felt numb again and also required more effort to achieve the same braking results.
I went with PASM purely for SWMBO who vetoe'd the sport suspension, otherwise haven driven both I would have gone with the sports set up.1. X73 or PASM
2. PCCB or Normal Brakes
This is what I wrote about the two of them back in November:
Suspension:
So first off, I took out the sports chassis car and didn't know what to expect as these are fix rate springs and dampers as well as other chassis tweaks. I was pleasantly surprised how comprised the car was. Its firm but its not crashy as I was expecting really. Even on the country lanes, its a firm ride but it hands the road really well and a huge plus is the epic feed back from the steering wheel.
Next I took out a PASM car, even before I go to the track I could feel the difference. The car seemed to roll and wallow and bit more and also didn't turn in as nice as the sports chassis setup. However, the biggest thing for me really was the feel of the steering as it just felt numb in comparison to the other setup.
So my finial choice there was the Sport Chassis.
Brakes:
This was another area where I was pleasantly surprised, as I have read loads of comments about the carbon setups so was unsure what expect. In short thought I found them to give a much greater braking feel and they seems to brake the same as the steels but with less effort. Then going back to a car with the steel breaks, the peddle felt numb again and also required more effort to achieve the same braking results.
Agree 100% with you on PCCB. Have them on my car which is currently at Emden awaiting shipment.
I see you haven't really had a definitive answer to your question - and I can't provide one because I haven't driven an SS car. So here's another inconclusive one.
FWIW SS spring rates and Front ARB are about 10% stiffer than PASM. Rear ARB is about 20% stiffer than PASM. Damping in PASM Sport mode, at its softest, varies from about as stiff as a standard Cayman, to very much stiffer. I would expect SS damping to be stiffer than standard Cayman- but I don't know.
So it is perfectly plausible that PASM in Sport mode is more comfortable than SS in a wide range of conditions - but it's all dependent on how good the algorithm used for setting its damper settings is.
But, frankly, comfort is such a subjective thing that only a back to back comparison - over the sort of roads you frequent, will give you the answer to your question.
FWIW SS spring rates and Front ARB are about 10% stiffer than PASM. Rear ARB is about 20% stiffer than PASM. Damping in PASM Sport mode, at its softest, varies from about as stiff as a standard Cayman, to very much stiffer. I would expect SS damping to be stiffer than standard Cayman- but I don't know.
So it is perfectly plausible that PASM in Sport mode is more comfortable than SS in a wide range of conditions - but it's all dependent on how good the algorithm used for setting its damper settings is.
But, frankly, comfort is such a subjective thing that only a back to back comparison - over the sort of roads you frequent, will give you the answer to your question.
Get SS its amazing, you'll regret it you don't. Previously had PASM and have not regrets not having it on the GTS. Agnostic from ride stiffness which is already covered above, the cars profile just looks so much more aggressive in the flesh 20mm lower. This alone sold if for me, given the different between PASM modes and ss was so neligable IMO. Married its a sports car you buying not a shopping trolley, IMO it would be odd not to spec this
My sincere thanks to all who have replied on the Forum and by email – and especially to those who have taken the time and trouble to explain the reasons for their thinking.
Based on the responses, I am leaning heavily towards X73. Everyone who has tried it seems to speak highly of it, and no X73 owners appear to be disappointed by their choice. Thus far anyway!
As bcr5784 rightly says, suspension choices are subjective. Since writing my original post I have been offered the chance of a Silverstone Experience where I will be hoping to try an X73 car on both road and track before locking down my specification.
For what its worth, I have also checked out the suspension spec of the 2 dozen or so Cayman and Boxster GTS Approved Used/Demonstators on the Porche UK website. The vast majority are specified with PASM. I’m not sure if any meaningful conclusions can be drawn from this. Perhaps it is simply that Pistonhead followers lean more towards the enthusiast end of the driver spectrum. Or perhaps OPC’s have taken the safer route and specified cars which are less likely to result in customer complaints about stiff/low suspension.
Also find it interesting that the GT4 – like the 991 GT3 – only comes with PASM as a suspension option. Would be interested in your thoughts as to why.
Based on the responses, I am leaning heavily towards X73. Everyone who has tried it seems to speak highly of it, and no X73 owners appear to be disappointed by their choice. Thus far anyway!
As bcr5784 rightly says, suspension choices are subjective. Since writing my original post I have been offered the chance of a Silverstone Experience where I will be hoping to try an X73 car on both road and track before locking down my specification.
For what its worth, I have also checked out the suspension spec of the 2 dozen or so Cayman and Boxster GTS Approved Used/Demonstators on the Porche UK website. The vast majority are specified with PASM. I’m not sure if any meaningful conclusions can be drawn from this. Perhaps it is simply that Pistonhead followers lean more towards the enthusiast end of the driver spectrum. Or perhaps OPC’s have taken the safer route and specified cars which are less likely to result in customer complaints about stiff/low suspension.
Also find it interesting that the GT4 – like the 991 GT3 – only comes with PASM as a suspension option. Would be interested in your thoughts as to why.
I drove a Boxster S demo with SS yesterday, purely to see how it compared to PASM which I have had on previous cars. I currently drive a Maserati Gransport MCV which has a stiff set-up and buckets which I'm ok with on long drives.
I found The SS set up on the Boxster was very good, stiff yes, but balanced and controlled. I could easily have it on a daily driver. I also find the PASM Sport mode on current Caymans/Boxsters to be easier to live with than older versions. The set up was definitely softer than the Maserati too.
If I was buying either Cayman GTS or Boxster GTS I'd be tempted to swap PASM for SS.
I found The SS set up on the Boxster was very good, stiff yes, but balanced and controlled. I could easily have it on a daily driver. I also find the PASM Sport mode on current Caymans/Boxsters to be easier to live with than older versions. The set up was definitely softer than the Maserati too.
If I was buying either Cayman GTS or Boxster GTS I'd be tempted to swap PASM for SS.
surtees said:
Also find it interesting that the GT4 – like the 991 GT3 – only comes with PASM as a suspension option. Would be interested in your thoughts as to why.
Like the GT3 the PASM is those cars is a different beast. The GT4 will be sitting 30mm lower I read, so an extra 10mm on the GTS. I think this is then a different proposition, or IMO I would be track stiff and PASM would give you that relief. I don't think SS is track stiff compared to other track focused cars I've driven RBTO. Good to hear that X73 is impressive on countryside roads. That’s where most of my driving will be done.
Not going for buckets. Partner will be driving the car from time to time. In fairness, I think that she would find them a step too far.
As for PASM on GT3’s and 4’s. Perhaps Porsche didn’t have much choice. I say that because a passive set up that was fully optimised for the race track would probably make the cars way too harsh for daily driving. Given that a significant number of potential buyers would have no intention of tracking their cars that would create a problem. PASM with its option of a Normal Mode would at least provide a compromise. However if there is any truth in this line of reasoning, it follows that GT3’s and 4’s – as they come from the factory - would be sub optimised for track!
With GTS’s being less hard core, a more moderate passive set up such as X73 could work acceptably well on both the track and on everyday roads. (Indeed this seems to tally with the experience of actual X73 owners).
Not going for buckets. Partner will be driving the car from time to time. In fairness, I think that she would find them a step too far.
As for PASM on GT3’s and 4’s. Perhaps Porsche didn’t have much choice. I say that because a passive set up that was fully optimised for the race track would probably make the cars way too harsh for daily driving. Given that a significant number of potential buyers would have no intention of tracking their cars that would create a problem. PASM with its option of a Normal Mode would at least provide a compromise. However if there is any truth in this line of reasoning, it follows that GT3’s and 4’s – as they come from the factory - would be sub optimised for track!
With GTS’s being less hard core, a more moderate passive set up such as X73 could work acceptably well on both the track and on everyday roads. (Indeed this seems to tally with the experience of actual X73 owners).
I'm going PASM on my BGTS order having test driven Cayman GTSs with SS and PASM on the road and driven PASM Boxster GTSs at PEC Silverstone.
SS was completely acceptable on the road when I tried, in fact I even got the dealer to print out the spec of the car I drove to confirm it had SS afterwards (I didn't looks at the buttons too closely on the drive). If you're used to fairly stiffly sprung cars, it'll be fine. I test drove the SS car after driving to the dealer in my GT3, so my reference point may have been a bit off (
) but I still had no complaints.
All that said, I'm going PASM as while it may not be the last word in absolute control on the road and track (which I have the GT3 for anyway), I loved having the option of changing the character of the car to suit my mood, esp in conjunction with PDK. Fancy a relaxing cruise to get somewhere? PASM in Normal, PDK in auto with no sport, felt like I was riding in an S-class, lovely. Want to get on it? PASM in Sport, Sport+ on, give it the beans, feels like a proper sports car. Even the buckets are dead comfortable (esp compared to the GT3 ones) so they will fit the 2 sided character of the car as well
SS was completely acceptable on the road when I tried, in fact I even got the dealer to print out the spec of the car I drove to confirm it had SS afterwards (I didn't looks at the buttons too closely on the drive). If you're used to fairly stiffly sprung cars, it'll be fine. I test drove the SS car after driving to the dealer in my GT3, so my reference point may have been a bit off (
) but I still had no complaints.All that said, I'm going PASM as while it may not be the last word in absolute control on the road and track (which I have the GT3 for anyway), I loved having the option of changing the character of the car to suit my mood, esp in conjunction with PDK. Fancy a relaxing cruise to get somewhere? PASM in Normal, PDK in auto with no sport, felt like I was riding in an S-class, lovely. Want to get on it? PASM in Sport, Sport+ on, give it the beans, feels like a proper sports car. Even the buckets are dead comfortable (esp compared to the GT3 ones) so they will fit the 2 sided character of the car as well
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