Who should pay for paint damage?
Discussion
I bought a BMW 525d in April 2013 as an approved used car from a dealer a long long distance away.
3 months later I took it to my local dealer for some minor servicing work. When they cleaned the car they stripped the lacquer off the front bumper through over-zealous use of a jetwash. They agreed to fix it and I was told that the lacquer should not be so susceptible to damage and that they would have to repaint the entire bumper to ensure that it did not happen again.
So they repaired it (but it has subsequently been admitted that they only ever did a local smart repair and hadn't repainted the whole bumper).
In November last year it had some more work done at the local dealer and once again they have managed to strip large areas of lacquer off the bumper. On complaining about this they tell me that at some point in the past the bumper has obviously been repainted with insufficient plasticiser being added to the lacquer and as a result it is too brittle and is lifting off in several places all over the front bumper.
What do you all think?
1) Should the supplying dealer be footing the bill because they supplied a car with a defective paint repair?
2) Should the local dealer do the job properly as they told me they would back in 2013? (I think they are offering to just patch up the new areas of damage, but think that the whole bumper needs doing properly and aren't offering to pay for that)
3) Should the BMW Approved warranty pay - as surely the car should have been warranted to have bodywork to the associated high standard?
My view is that the job should be done at cost prices and that an acceptable compromise would be for the resultant bill to be split 3 ways between the supplying dealer, the local dealer and myself. I'm not really getting anywhere with this suggestion.
3 months later I took it to my local dealer for some minor servicing work. When they cleaned the car they stripped the lacquer off the front bumper through over-zealous use of a jetwash. They agreed to fix it and I was told that the lacquer should not be so susceptible to damage and that they would have to repaint the entire bumper to ensure that it did not happen again.
So they repaired it (but it has subsequently been admitted that they only ever did a local smart repair and hadn't repainted the whole bumper).
In November last year it had some more work done at the local dealer and once again they have managed to strip large areas of lacquer off the bumper. On complaining about this they tell me that at some point in the past the bumper has obviously been repainted with insufficient plasticiser being added to the lacquer and as a result it is too brittle and is lifting off in several places all over the front bumper.
- The supplying dealer won't accept any liability to pay because I've had the car for 20 months now, even thought the fault was apparent 3 months after I got it.
- The local dealer will only patch up the local areas they have recently damaged, but want full retail rates to repaint the whole bumper properly.
What do you all think?
1) Should the supplying dealer be footing the bill because they supplied a car with a defective paint repair?
2) Should the local dealer do the job properly as they told me they would back in 2013? (I think they are offering to just patch up the new areas of damage, but think that the whole bumper needs doing properly and aren't offering to pay for that)
3) Should the BMW Approved warranty pay - as surely the car should have been warranted to have bodywork to the associated high standard?
My view is that the job should be done at cost prices and that an acceptable compromise would be for the resultant bill to be split 3 ways between the supplying dealer, the local dealer and myself. I'm not really getting anywhere with this suggestion.
Edited by rlg43p on Friday 13th February 14:31
rlg43p said:
I bought a BMW 525d in April 2013 as an approved used car from a dealer a long long distance away.
3 months later I took it to my local dealer for some minor servicing work. When they cleaned the car they stripped the lacquer off the front bumper through over-zealous use of a jetwash. They agreed to fix it and I was told that the lacquer should not be so susceptible to damage and that they would have to repaint the entire bumper to ensure that it did not happen again.
So they repaired it (but it has subsequently been admitted that they only ever did a local smart repair and hadn't repainted the whole bumper). In November last year it had some more work done at the local dealer and once again they have managed to strip large areas of lacquer off the bumper. On complaining about this they tell me that at some point in the past the bumper has obviously been repainted with insufficient plasticiser being added to the lacquer and as a result it is too brittle and is lifting off in several places all over the front bumper.
What do you all think?
1) Should the supplying dealer be footing the bill because they supplied a car with a defective paint repair?
2) Should the local dealer do the job properly as they told me they would back in 2013? (I think they are offering to just patch up the new areas of damage, but think that the whole bumper needs doing properly and aren't offering to pay for that)
3) Should the BMW Approved warranty pay - as surely the car should have been warranted to have bodywork to the associated high standard?
My view is that the job should be done at cost prices and that an acceptable compromise would be for the resultant bill to be split 3 ways between the supplying dealer, the local dealer and myself. I'm not really getting anywhere with this suggestion.
The supplying dealer won't do anything, it's 20 months old and someone else's mess up, why would they? 3 months later I took it to my local dealer for some minor servicing work. When they cleaned the car they stripped the lacquer off the front bumper through over-zealous use of a jetwash. They agreed to fix it and I was told that the lacquer should not be so susceptible to damage and that they would have to repaint the entire bumper to ensure that it did not happen again.
So they repaired it (but it has subsequently been admitted that they only ever did a local smart repair and hadn't repainted the whole bumper). In November last year it had some more work done at the local dealer and once again they have managed to strip large areas of lacquer off the bumper. On complaining about this they tell me that at some point in the past the bumper has obviously been repainted with insufficient plasticiser being added to the lacquer and as a result it is too brittle and is lifting off in several places all over the front bumper.
- The supplying dealer won't accept any liability to pay because I've had the car for 20 months now, even thought the fault was apparent 3 months after I got it.
- The local dealer will only patch up the local areas they have recently damaged, but want full retail rates to repaint the whole bumper properly.
What do you all think?
1) Should the supplying dealer be footing the bill because they supplied a car with a defective paint repair?
2) Should the local dealer do the job properly as they told me they would back in 2013? (I think they are offering to just patch up the new areas of damage, but think that the whole bumper needs doing properly and aren't offering to pay for that)
3) Should the BMW Approved warranty pay - as surely the car should have been warranted to have bodywork to the associated high standard?
My view is that the job should be done at cost prices and that an acceptable compromise would be for the resultant bill to be split 3 ways between the supplying dealer, the local dealer and myself. I'm not really getting anywhere with this suggestion.
Edited by rlg43p on Friday 13th February 14:30
The place that did the damage are liable, and should pay to put you back in the position you were in.
I would contest their explanation of the cause of the problem. It is more likely that when the bumper was previously repaired a small patch of colour was 'blown in' and then the whole bumper was relaquered with poor preparation of the unrepaired surface - it should have been wiped with an appropriate solvent to removed any wax or silicone polish on the surface.
When that is not done it is usually the cause of the laquer peeling off.
You should really have taken this up with the dealers who originally sold you the car as soon as you were aware of the problem. I think you've forfeited your recourse with them when you allowed the local mob to patch it up.
When that is not done it is usually the cause of the laquer peeling off.
You should really have taken this up with the dealers who originally sold you the car as soon as you were aware of the problem. I think you've forfeited your recourse with them when you allowed the local mob to patch it up.
Edited by r11co on Friday 13th February 14:46
Stone chips can go through the lacquer too which leave a nice hole for the high pressure water jet to get under, nicely lifting off your lacquer coat. It may not have seen previous repair work as they are claiming...
Personally I don't see you getting any joy out of any of them. I avoid using jetwashes on my car as I've had the lacquer lifting thing happen myself with no-one else to blame but myself. Hold it too close and it strips your lacquer if you've any imperfections, but hold it too far away and it doesn't remove the ingrained muck.
Personally I don't see you getting any joy out of any of them. I avoid using jetwashes on my car as I've had the lacquer lifting thing happen myself with no-one else to blame but myself. Hold it too close and it strips your lacquer if you've any imperfections, but hold it too far away and it doesn't remove the ingrained muck.
Common pressure washer issue.
If used, as so many are, at pointblank range if there is a chip in the lacquer it can remove the lacquer.
I've done the same trick myself on the bonnet of my own car with my own pressure washer - took a piece of lacquer off about the size of the palm of my hand requiring a complete bonnet respray
. I usually advise that the end of the lance should be no nearer to the paintwork than a metre & its a rinse after using a sponge, rather than a concentrated and potentially damaging blast.
I DO use closer underneath, but you need to be careful of any electrical connectors as high pressure water will get past seals - that also includes seals on wheel bearings
Bear in mind that high pressure water - with additives - is used to cut steel & concrete so paint doesn't stand much chance.
As for liability I would suggest that he who did the damage foots the bill. If they don't want to play you could consider getting quotes & suing but you need the PH legal eagles to advise on that one!
If used, as so many are, at pointblank range if there is a chip in the lacquer it can remove the lacquer.
I've done the same trick myself on the bonnet of my own car with my own pressure washer - took a piece of lacquer off about the size of the palm of my hand requiring a complete bonnet respray
. I usually advise that the end of the lance should be no nearer to the paintwork than a metre & its a rinse after using a sponge, rather than a concentrated and potentially damaging blast. I DO use closer underneath, but you need to be careful of any electrical connectors as high pressure water will get past seals - that also includes seals on wheel bearings
Bear in mind that high pressure water - with additives - is used to cut steel & concrete so paint doesn't stand much chance.
As for liability I would suggest that he who did the damage foots the bill. If they don't want to play you could consider getting quotes & suing but you need the PH legal eagles to advise on that one!
Mercury00 said:
R2T2 said:
The place that did the damage are liable, and should pay to put you back in the position you were in.
But in that case they'd only have to give him back a poorly repaired front bumper.That's just one of the risks of buying a second-hand car.
kambites said:
Mercury00 said:
R2T2 said:
The place that did the damage are liable, and should pay to put you back in the position you were in.
But in that case they'd only have to give him back a poorly repaired front bumper.That's just one of the risks of buying a second-hand car.
R2T2 said:
I would at least expect the dealer to contribute the repair cost (to them) of the damage caused by them, and then if OP would like a full respray, the difference would be on him.
Yes, that would be reasonable although I'd expect them to contribute the cost to them of repairing the damage they'd done which if they're capable of patching it up themselves may not be very much. kambites said:
Yes, that would be reasonable although I'd expect them to contribute the cost to them of repairing the damage they'd done which if they're capable of patching it up themselves may not be very much.
True, if it costs them £50 to repair, I would expect at least £50, but realistically hope for what joe public might pay for them to do it. I agree the ones who did the damage should repair the bumper.
Is it worth suggesting that you clearly instruct car dealers NOT to wash the car? I always leave specific instructions with the desk and a flyer visible in the car to this effect. Through various car forums I use, the number of cars damaged by dealers trying to clean them is alarming. To add to that, when they don't shot blast the paint or strip the lacquer off, they're just not very good at it and are usually experts at scratching deep swirls into what was glass-like finishes and smearing cheap s
tty products all over it. Nowadays I don't let them do it.
Is it worth suggesting that you clearly instruct car dealers NOT to wash the car? I always leave specific instructions with the desk and a flyer visible in the car to this effect. Through various car forums I use, the number of cars damaged by dealers trying to clean them is alarming. To add to that, when they don't shot blast the paint or strip the lacquer off, they're just not very good at it and are usually experts at scratching deep swirls into what was glass-like finishes and smearing cheap s
tty products all over it. Nowadays I don't let them do it.What they are saying is not entirely untrue, I've had a similar problem in the past (self inflicted) whereby the pressure washer took the paint off a front bumper, later it became obvious that it had been resprayed in the past.
If the lacquer isn't hard enough it's very easily damaged. Unfortunately, things like pressure washers should be safe to use on a car with good paintwork which is properly hardened. I would argue that it's not 'over zealous' use of the pressure washer that is your problem, as otherwise the garage would have queues going down the street with disgruntled customers flaky paint.
Sadly, the issue appears to be the paint finish itself, which I don't think the garage should be liable for, as it was not 'fit for purpose' if you like - car paint is supposed to be hard. The supplying dealer probably won't be interested either, since it was not highlighted as a problem within a decent time frame - they may not have even been aware of the issue. I think it's probably best to get the bumper resprayed by a professional bodyshop and stop looking for any recourse, because it's not likely to get you anywhere.
If the lacquer isn't hard enough it's very easily damaged. Unfortunately, things like pressure washers should be safe to use on a car with good paintwork which is properly hardened. I would argue that it's not 'over zealous' use of the pressure washer that is your problem, as otherwise the garage would have queues going down the street with disgruntled customers flaky paint.
Sadly, the issue appears to be the paint finish itself, which I don't think the garage should be liable for, as it was not 'fit for purpose' if you like - car paint is supposed to be hard. The supplying dealer probably won't be interested either, since it was not highlighted as a problem within a decent time frame - they may not have even been aware of the issue. I think it's probably best to get the bumper resprayed by a professional bodyshop and stop looking for any recourse, because it's not likely to get you anywhere.
C.A.R. said:
What they are saying is not entirely untrue, I've had a similar problem in the past (self inflicted) whereby the pressure washer took the paint off a front bumper, later it became obvious that it had been resprayed in the past.
If the lacquer isn't hard enough it's very easily damaged. Unfortunately, things like pressure washers should be safe to use on a car with good paintwork which is properly hardened. I would argue that it's not 'over zealous' use of the pressure washer that is your problem, as otherwise the garage would have queues going down the street with disgruntled customers flaky paint.
Sadly, the issue appears to be the paint finish itself, which I don't think the garage should be liable for, as it was not 'fit for purpose' if you like - car paint is supposed to be hard. The supplying dealer probably won't be interested either, since it was not highlighted as a problem within a decent time frame - they may not have even been aware of the issue. I think it's probably best to get the bumper resprayed by a professional bodyshop and stop looking for any recourse, because it's not likely to get you anywhere.
One factor to add in to the equation is that I have regularly used a jet wash (carefully) when washing the car and I have had the car washed several times at one of the typical eastern European run operations and neither of us have ever managed to damage the bumper lacquer. If the lacquer isn't hard enough it's very easily damaged. Unfortunately, things like pressure washers should be safe to use on a car with good paintwork which is properly hardened. I would argue that it's not 'over zealous' use of the pressure washer that is your problem, as otherwise the garage would have queues going down the street with disgruntled customers flaky paint.
Sadly, the issue appears to be the paint finish itself, which I don't think the garage should be liable for, as it was not 'fit for purpose' if you like - car paint is supposed to be hard. The supplying dealer probably won't be interested either, since it was not highlighted as a problem within a decent time frame - they may not have even been aware of the issue. I think it's probably best to get the bumper resprayed by a professional bodyshop and stop looking for any recourse, because it's not likely to get you anywhere.
I think the dealer concerned has been very aggressive with the use of their jet wash.
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