2002 996 Turbo ?
Discussion
Hi all,
Had a call from an OPC here in NL who are trying to get me out of my 97' 993 C2 and into an 02' 996 Turbo.
Car looks in great condition from the pictures - is a manual, with FSH and a "middle of the road" spec. Car has 98k kms / 60k miles.
Now I'm not specifically looking to get out of my 993 (despite a battery draining issue with I think I have narrowed down to the alarm), but never had a Turbo and this may be the right opportunity to get into one. I've asked on email the usual questions around if it has had any replacement clutch, radiators, heat shields, aircon condenser, replaced suspension components etc. Just waiting for a response.
My assumption is that running costs may be slightly higher for the Turbo than I see for my 993, although service intervals I think are longer, and I may pay slightly more for consumables (brakes, tyres, fuel etc), but servicing costs will be slightly less.
Although in the 18 months I've owned the 993 I've probably spent the the best part of EUR10k on tyres, battery, servicing, new exhaust from Carnewal, new engine mounts, shocks and springs, speakers, windscreen rust cut out and new metal welded in and sprayed etc etc etc etc - so I have my eyes open to the potential things that may need doing on a car of this age.
Any other points of note from anyone who has done this move - 993 non-turbo to 996 Turbo ?
On the assumption that the major things have been taken care of and the car has been well maintained - what are the pitfalls of a 13 year old Turbo with 60k miles - or am I walking into a "money pit" ?
Cheers
1/2p
Had a call from an OPC here in NL who are trying to get me out of my 97' 993 C2 and into an 02' 996 Turbo.
Car looks in great condition from the pictures - is a manual, with FSH and a "middle of the road" spec. Car has 98k kms / 60k miles.
Now I'm not specifically looking to get out of my 993 (despite a battery draining issue with I think I have narrowed down to the alarm), but never had a Turbo and this may be the right opportunity to get into one. I've asked on email the usual questions around if it has had any replacement clutch, radiators, heat shields, aircon condenser, replaced suspension components etc. Just waiting for a response.
My assumption is that running costs may be slightly higher for the Turbo than I see for my 993, although service intervals I think are longer, and I may pay slightly more for consumables (brakes, tyres, fuel etc), but servicing costs will be slightly less.
Although in the 18 months I've owned the 993 I've probably spent the the best part of EUR10k on tyres, battery, servicing, new exhaust from Carnewal, new engine mounts, shocks and springs, speakers, windscreen rust cut out and new metal welded in and sprayed etc etc etc etc - so I have my eyes open to the potential things that may need doing on a car of this age.
Any other points of note from anyone who has done this move - 993 non-turbo to 996 Turbo ?
On the assumption that the major things have been taken care of and the car has been well maintained - what are the pitfalls of a 13 year old Turbo with 60k miles - or am I walking into a "money pit" ?
Cheers
1/2p
I have a 996 turbo and think it's epic but using a non biased approach:
Plus points in staying put:
You have a car that is (almost) sorted, you've invested in it and you know it well.
You have that nice air cooled sound
It's one of pretty 911s (some say etc)
It's a car that you can pretty much use the performance on the road.
It's a safe decision - you know your car warts and all.
Plus points in moving to the 996 turbo
Its fast - above 3k rpm in 3rd gear it feels like a jet plane on take off.
AWD and the grip is one of the things that amazes me the most, although it does feel RWD most of the time.
More modern interior - although still pretty shocking by modern car standards.
If you want an easy life stay put, if you want to laugh out loud when you press the right pedal go turbo. I think the rest you have summed up yourself - at 60k it should have had all radiators replaced (in Europe anyway), engine is pretty strong, turbos are pretty good too but the actuators are prone to seizing up.
Plus points in staying put:
You have a car that is (almost) sorted, you've invested in it and you know it well.
You have that nice air cooled sound
It's one of pretty 911s (some say etc)
It's a car that you can pretty much use the performance on the road.
It's a safe decision - you know your car warts and all.
Plus points in moving to the 996 turbo
Its fast - above 3k rpm in 3rd gear it feels like a jet plane on take off.
AWD and the grip is one of the things that amazes me the most, although it does feel RWD most of the time.
More modern interior - although still pretty shocking by modern car standards.
If you want an easy life stay put, if you want to laugh out loud when you press the right pedal go turbo. I think the rest you have summed up yourself - at 60k it should have had all radiators replaced (in Europe anyway), engine is pretty strong, turbos are pretty good too but the actuators are prone to seizing up.
mrstevo said:
I have a 996 turbo and think it's epic but using a non biased approach:
Plus points in staying put:
You have a car that is (almost) sorted, you've invested in it and you know it well.
You have that nice air cooled sound
It's one of pretty 911s (some say etc)
It's a car that you can pretty much use the performance on the road.
It's a safe decision - you know your car warts and all.
Plus points in moving to the 996 turbo
Its fast - above 3k rpm in 3rd gear it feels like a jet plane on take off.
AWD and the grip is one of the things that amazes me the most, although it does feel RWD most of the time.
More modern interior - although still pretty shocking by modern car standards.
If you want an easy life stay put, if you want to laugh out loud when you press the right pedal go turbo. I think the rest you have summed up yourself - at 60k it should have had all radiators replaced (in Europe anyway), engine is pretty strong, turbos are pretty good too but the actuators are prone to seizing up.
Nice - thanks for the measured response.Plus points in staying put:
You have a car that is (almost) sorted, you've invested in it and you know it well.
You have that nice air cooled sound
It's one of pretty 911s (some say etc)
It's a car that you can pretty much use the performance on the road.
It's a safe decision - you know your car warts and all.
Plus points in moving to the 996 turbo
Its fast - above 3k rpm in 3rd gear it feels like a jet plane on take off.
AWD and the grip is one of the things that amazes me the most, although it does feel RWD most of the time.
More modern interior - although still pretty shocking by modern car standards.
If you want an easy life stay put, if you want to laugh out loud when you press the right pedal go turbo. I think the rest you have summed up yourself - at 60k it should have had all radiators replaced (in Europe anyway), engine is pretty strong, turbos are pretty good too but the actuators are prone to seizing up.
Like I say - never had a Turbo so would like to experience the fun that brings.
Just spoke to the garage - it has a full OPC service history.
Two weeks ago it had the left and right radiators replaced, new condenser, and new pressure cylinder on the clutch - which itself was replaced at around 30k kms ago.
I might go test drive it and see what I think - just a scratch I think I want to itch.
I bought at 40k miles and had to change the clutch accumulator, all rads and all tyres fairly soon after buying :-/
I can't put into words how nice it is to drive though and all is forgiven!
The only way you'll know if it's for you is to take it out and one one of your favourite roads...
I can't put into words how nice it is to drive though and all is forgiven!
The only way you'll know if it's for you is to take it out and one one of your favourite roads...
Nobbles said:
In NL stick with the 993, much more of an 'event' at legal speeds and still quick enough to embarrass most. The grass is not always greener.
But will I always be wondering "what if" . . . . Life is way too short for that.
I'll go test drive it - see what I think. But it needs to be more than just the "speed" thing, as I adore my 993.
I did test drive a 996 C4S before I bought my last car which was a Cayman S - and seem to remember I didn't like the interior. But lets see.
I'd thought about a 997 Turbo - but manual cars are almost not existent here and PDK models are still fetching upwards of EUR70k.
I've owned a 993 C4 and currently own a 996 turbo (x50).
I had a 3.2 Carrera before my 993 C4 and although the 993 was newer I didn't feel it was a big enough leap forward over the earlier car. I didn't find it that quick, I preferred the older cars looks, smell and feel and ended up going back to a 3.2 Carrera. I also don't think the 993 has aged that well.
The 996 turbo is a much easier car to drive and feels more modern. Some people don't like the look of the lights or the interior. It's a nice place to be and when you want to make progress it's fast, even in the wet when it's even more impressive.
Currently 993 values have shot up (in the UK), but 996 turbo values also seem to be on the rise.
The 996 turbo at the OPC looks nice black with black interior. It has crested sports seats but no sat nav (this can be retro fitted).
I'd go and drive it, see if you like it and then decide if it makes sense to swap. Only you can decide.
Might be worth selling the 993 privately and then buying the 996 turbo - I don't know the NL market but in the UK you'd probably expect to come out of the deal with a new car and some money in your pocket.
Good luck, it's a nice decision to have to make!
I had a 3.2 Carrera before my 993 C4 and although the 993 was newer I didn't feel it was a big enough leap forward over the earlier car. I didn't find it that quick, I preferred the older cars looks, smell and feel and ended up going back to a 3.2 Carrera. I also don't think the 993 has aged that well.
The 996 turbo is a much easier car to drive and feels more modern. Some people don't like the look of the lights or the interior. It's a nice place to be and when you want to make progress it's fast, even in the wet when it's even more impressive.
Currently 993 values have shot up (in the UK), but 996 turbo values also seem to be on the rise.
The 996 turbo at the OPC looks nice black with black interior. It has crested sports seats but no sat nav (this can be retro fitted).
I'd go and drive it, see if you like it and then decide if it makes sense to swap. Only you can decide.
Might be worth selling the 993 privately and then buying the 996 turbo - I don't know the NL market but in the UK you'd probably expect to come out of the deal with a new car and some money in your pocket.
Good luck, it's a nice decision to have to make!
I went 964 to 996 turbo, and by coincidence my turbo is the same age and mileage as the one you're looking at (mine rolled over 59k at the weekend). Definitely shouldn't be a money pit at that mileage.
Initially I kept the 964 and didn't think I'd sell it - they are very different cars and I liked the more raw feeling of the 964. But gradually I found I was hardly ever using it because even though they are very different the reality was that the turbo did almost everything better.
Coming from a 993 I doubt you'll like the feel of the turbo brakes - it took me quite a long time to get used to them. Much more pedal travel than the older cars.
The turbo is very good at everything, very very fast and - as mentioned already - quite astounding in the wet. I think mine uses less petrol than my 964 did too.
However, despite having owned mine for five and a half years in which I've added about 40k miles to it - I do think it lacks something which the 964 (and I'm sure your 993) have. Maybe it is just too accomplished at most things but I have always found it fairly soulless. My 964 was both a daily and a weekend car for some of the time I owned it, and was excellent as both. My turbo has been a daily which it did well - I wouldn't want it as a weekend car though because it's just not enough of an event to drive - for me personally.
As I said, they are immensely fast which is fun - but I do wonder if you took that away, what would really be left that made it special.
I'd still say they are excellent cars for the money but they lack what makes something like a 993 special. I guess basically mine has never really felt like a sports car to me - it's much more of a GT. Which I don't think anybody would say about a 964 or a 993.
Initially I kept the 964 and didn't think I'd sell it - they are very different cars and I liked the more raw feeling of the 964. But gradually I found I was hardly ever using it because even though they are very different the reality was that the turbo did almost everything better.
Coming from a 993 I doubt you'll like the feel of the turbo brakes - it took me quite a long time to get used to them. Much more pedal travel than the older cars.
The turbo is very good at everything, very very fast and - as mentioned already - quite astounding in the wet. I think mine uses less petrol than my 964 did too.
However, despite having owned mine for five and a half years in which I've added about 40k miles to it - I do think it lacks something which the 964 (and I'm sure your 993) have. Maybe it is just too accomplished at most things but I have always found it fairly soulless. My 964 was both a daily and a weekend car for some of the time I owned it, and was excellent as both. My turbo has been a daily which it did well - I wouldn't want it as a weekend car though because it's just not enough of an event to drive - for me personally.
As I said, they are immensely fast which is fun - but I do wonder if you took that away, what would really be left that made it special.
I'd still say they are excellent cars for the money but they lack what makes something like a 993 special. I guess basically mine has never really felt like a sports car to me - it's much more of a GT. Which I don't think anybody would say about a 964 or a 993.
I think it very much depends on what you're after, what you think is acceptable and which era your driving is brought up in.
For me, being able to be truly comfortable behind the wheel with excellent driving ergonomics for my own cars is a MUST.
I am in my early 30s and have long legs. I have driven very well sorted friends' 993s and 996s on road trips. I have also owned a variety of cars from the early 90s onwards, from MR2 and Smart Roadster Coupe to Mondeos, 6 MPS and W220 S-Class. When I was choosing between a manual 993 Targa and a manual 996 Turbo, I cannot get over the fact that the 993 driving ergonomic does not suit me. Seating in the driver seat, the centre of the steering wheel is not lined up with the centre line of the seat and the pedals are also not lined up. As my winter daily driver for central London rush hours and driving in Home Counties, I have to go for a 996 Turbo for seating correctly - 45 minutes commuting 3 miles in London gridlock in the evening put a different perspective on the 993 vs. 996 debate. Personally, I still find the 90s MR2 and NSX driving position the most comfortable.
However, I see the challenge and the less comfortable 993 can be more acceptable if 60s, 70s and 80s cars are what you were brought up in. Also, if driving ergonomics is not a priority for your own car. Then there is the aspects of capital appreciation on air cooled 911. The exclusivity, the noise, etc.
Either way, drive both and see which you prefer.
For me, being able to be truly comfortable behind the wheel with excellent driving ergonomics for my own cars is a MUST.
I am in my early 30s and have long legs. I have driven very well sorted friends' 993s and 996s on road trips. I have also owned a variety of cars from the early 90s onwards, from MR2 and Smart Roadster Coupe to Mondeos, 6 MPS and W220 S-Class. When I was choosing between a manual 993 Targa and a manual 996 Turbo, I cannot get over the fact that the 993 driving ergonomic does not suit me. Seating in the driver seat, the centre of the steering wheel is not lined up with the centre line of the seat and the pedals are also not lined up. As my winter daily driver for central London rush hours and driving in Home Counties, I have to go for a 996 Turbo for seating correctly - 45 minutes commuting 3 miles in London gridlock in the evening put a different perspective on the 993 vs. 996 debate. Personally, I still find the 90s MR2 and NSX driving position the most comfortable.
However, I see the challenge and the less comfortable 993 can be more acceptable if 60s, 70s and 80s cars are what you were brought up in. Also, if driving ergonomics is not a priority for your own car. Then there is the aspects of capital appreciation on air cooled 911. The exclusivity, the noise, etc.
Either way, drive both and see which you prefer.
Edited by hygt2 on Monday 16th February 23:16
So I went to see and drive the car today.
Paintwork in Basalt Black was immaculate. A few swirls and chips - but to be expected.
The interior was nice too - which surprised me. I expected it to be - well - more "flimsy" than the 993. Hard-backed sports seats and not a mark on the leather, although the yellow seatbelts were a little grubby - but nothing a good valet wouldn't fix.
Out on the road - the car was very easy to drive. Held the road nicely - and once on the highway . . . . . Wow. Power delivery was superb, and just kept going through the rev range and gears up to well beyond the legal limit.
So although I thought I would never say this - I've sold my 993.
Negotiated in a full service, new tyres and brake discs and pads all round, coupled with the work already done (new condensor, radiators, clutch and master cylinder etc etc etc etc) and they threw in the sport exhaust tips in place from the ovals - I hope that next Saturday I pick up my beautiful 996 Turbo.
Paintwork in Basalt Black was immaculate. A few swirls and chips - but to be expected.
The interior was nice too - which surprised me. I expected it to be - well - more "flimsy" than the 993. Hard-backed sports seats and not a mark on the leather, although the yellow seatbelts were a little grubby - but nothing a good valet wouldn't fix.
Out on the road - the car was very easy to drive. Held the road nicely - and once on the highway . . . . . Wow. Power delivery was superb, and just kept going through the rev range and gears up to well beyond the legal limit.
So although I thought I would never say this - I've sold my 993.
Negotiated in a full service, new tyres and brake discs and pads all round, coupled with the work already done (new condensor, radiators, clutch and master cylinder etc etc etc etc) and they threw in the sport exhaust tips in place from the ovals - I hope that next Saturday I pick up my beautiful 996 Turbo.
So as a follow up to this - I finally today, traded in my beloved 993 for this monster.
The drive home was "eventful" - turning a left hand bend the dashboard lit up and the "Check brake fluid level" and "PSM" lights came on. The garage replaced the brake fluid so I topped it up to just over max (looking at threads for similar issues on SpeedSix and Renspeed) and all is ok, but will keep my eye on it.
The hard backed sports seats are very very comfortable although the sports suspension is very firm - the seats are beautifully padded and really help.
It really is an easy cruising car. She sits at 130kph all day long (yes it is legal here on some roads). Cruise control makes it even more effortless. The car also has automatic wipers and self dimming rear and side mirrors which is very nice.
It also has an after-market VDO Dayton navigation system although I"m not sure I will use it and it takes up storage space
Onto the acceleration. 3rd gear from about 80kph and flooring the throttle - now that will get me into trouble
It just pulls so hard through all the gears - but 3rd is sensational.
The dealership states that they balanced both front and rear wheels (new tyres on both axels) but there is some slight but unpleasant vibration between 80-120kph - I assume I need to take it to a specialist tyre place and get it rebalanced ?
Having never driven or been in a turbo before - what sort of noise should the car make ? On certain sections of motorway tonight I almost thought the car sounded like a Land Rover ! That sort of "humming" noise they make - I am assuming this is tyre / road noise ? Not sure what tyres the dealer put on it but will look in the morning.
Thanks again for the advise guys.
The drive home was "eventful" - turning a left hand bend the dashboard lit up and the "Check brake fluid level" and "PSM" lights came on. The garage replaced the brake fluid so I topped it up to just over max (looking at threads for similar issues on SpeedSix and Renspeed) and all is ok, but will keep my eye on it.
The hard backed sports seats are very very comfortable although the sports suspension is very firm - the seats are beautifully padded and really help.
It really is an easy cruising car. She sits at 130kph all day long (yes it is legal here on some roads). Cruise control makes it even more effortless. The car also has automatic wipers and self dimming rear and side mirrors which is very nice.
It also has an after-market VDO Dayton navigation system although I"m not sure I will use it and it takes up storage space
Onto the acceleration. 3rd gear from about 80kph and flooring the throttle - now that will get me into trouble
It just pulls so hard through all the gears - but 3rd is sensational.The dealership states that they balanced both front and rear wheels (new tyres on both axels) but there is some slight but unpleasant vibration between 80-120kph - I assume I need to take it to a specialist tyre place and get it rebalanced ?
Having never driven or been in a turbo before - what sort of noise should the car make ? On certain sections of motorway tonight I almost thought the car sounded like a Land Rover ! That sort of "humming" noise they make - I am assuming this is tyre / road noise ? Not sure what tyres the dealer put on it but will look in the morning.
Thanks again for the advise guys.
Great cars aren’t they!
Should not the supplier re balance your wheels for you? As for tyre noise etc I guess this depends on the make of tyre, and the road surface. I find mine is quite pressure sensitive, running at 34 front and 42 [ when warm ] back seems to be the best compromise on my car which has Michelin Pilot sports.
3rd gear is pretty epic isn’t it
Should not the supplier re balance your wheels for you? As for tyre noise etc I guess this depends on the make of tyre, and the road surface. I find mine is quite pressure sensitive, running at 34 front and 42 [ when warm ] back seems to be the best compromise on my car which has Michelin Pilot sports.
3rd gear is pretty epic isn’t it
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