Suing for damages (vehicles)

[helidan]

Due to an incident I mentioned on here earlier this week it looks very likely that my partners car will be written off.

The thing is, the car is in exceptional condition for its age and has had quite a lot of work carried out on it in recent times (engine work, brakes, clutch, exhaust etc etc). It is mechanically very sound and still looks very presentable both inside and out. Basically we would hate to see it written off on account of what's happened.

Of course the insurance will only pay out a certain value irrespective of work we have done to the vehicle. So I ask has it ever been known to buy the vehicle back from the insurance company and then sue the TP for damages via Small Claims?

What would be the chances of a case like this going in our favour?

[ferrariF50lover]

Put the insurers fully in the picture as to the condition of the car. Find out what cars in that condition are worth and use that as your leverage to ask for an appropriate settlement figure. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that £5000 worth of work makes a car worth £5000 more, it simply doesn't work like that. My car has had two major jobs completed on it, which between them cost perhaps £4000. I'd be lucky to command a £750 premium over an identical car requiring the work.

As for suing the other driver, I can't see why you'd be allowed. That's why we have insurance. Imagine the conversation where you try to explain that you've been involved in a car crash, the other party has been found liable and their insurance has paid out for your vehicle/whippy/time off work etc and you're still after more. What, precisely, would you be suing for?

[Jonjo91]

Surely you will receive a settlement from the insurer which will negate the need to sue through small claims?

If you tried to sue me and my insurers had settled the claim, that would be my argument. No idea if that stands in court though. Sure someone will be along with concrete facts soon.

[TooMany2cvs]

helidan said:

So I ask has it ever been known to buy the vehicle back from the insurance company and then sue the TP for damages via Small Claims?

If the insurer own the car, then you've accepted it's written off and you won't/can't keep the salvage. Until then, it's yours - so you don't need to buy it back.

If you're claiming from your insurer, then you've got no other claim on the third party - you've agreed to let your insurer do that on your behalf. If you don't agree with your insurer on the value, that's not the TP's problem (or their insurer's). It's between you, your insurer, and the insurance ombudsman.

Even if you tried, you'd probably get thrown out with "But your car isn't worth what you claim, it's worth what your insurer paid you, so there's nothing else to claim for".

Just get as close to the fair market value as you can, and keep the salvage, assuming it's not CatB.

This other thread? http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Given that it's just an Astra (assuming fairly recent), and nothing particularly exotic, a fair market value's going to be fairly easy to establish via price guides. Whether you _agree_ with that value or not doesn't mean you're righter than the guides are...

[helidan]

To be a bit more clear, I'm referring to a potential situation where we could be hundreds and hundreds of pounds out of pocket to put us back to the same state we were PRIOR to the incident and attributed to negligence.

What is there in place to ensure this happens?

[Roo]

helidan said:

To be a bit more clear, I'm referring to a potential situation where we could be hundreds and hundreds of pounds out of pocket to put us back to the same state we were PRIOR to the incident and attributed to negligence.

What is there in place to ensure this happens?

Why would you be hundreds and hundreds of pounds out of pocket?

The insurance company will pay fair market value if the car is written off.

[helidan]

Jonjo91 said:

Surely you will receive a settlement from the insurer which will negate the need to sue through small claims?

If you tried to sue me and my insurers had settled the claim, that would be my argument. No idea if that stands in court though. Sure someone will be along with concrete facts soon.

Yes, this.

Basically trying to recover out of pocket expenses we might incur in replacing the vehicle, ie. the difference between what the insurance payout was and the extra we have paid to purchase a vehicle of comparable condition.

[Claudia Skies]

Your insurers will not allow this type of arrangement. Your policy will say they have the conduct of all legal proceedings and you don't have the option of going it alone. The reason is that if the other party counter-claims and you make a mess of the case it could end up as a big liability for the insurance company which they would still be obliged to pick up. A classic example would be you suing for £2,000 of vehicle damage and the other party counter-claiming with £30,000 of whiplash injuries.

[paintman]

Is the vehicle insured as an 'agreed value' to reflect its conditon? If so you may well get a higher payout. Bear in mind items that have been replaced as 'necessary repairs' aren't likely to attract a higher payout.
Still between you & the insurers & if you tried to take the other party to court they will simply refer it to their insurers - which you will find is the standard advice given on PH to those who ask what to do when that happens.
I expect others better qualified will post in due course

Edited by paintman on Thursday 19th February 12:26

[helidan]

Roo said:

Why would you be hundreds and hundreds of pounds out of pocket?

The insurance company will pay fair market value if the car is written off.

Insurance offers say £700-800, replacement car of equivalent condition, service history, mileage etc. costs £1000. What is there in place to cover the £200-300 shortfall?

[hufggfg]

I certainly have no experience here, but assuming the third party is entirely at fault, don't they have an obligation to give you fair value for your car? So, if you've modified it extensively they certainly don't have to give you the cost of the mods, but don't they have to pay an amount that would allow you to replace the car like for like? Either by buying an already modified one, or by modifying another car. Would the insurance ombudsman not deal with this issue?

[helidan]

hufggfg said:

I certainly have no experience here, but assuming the third party is entirely at fault, don't they have an obligation to give you fair value for your car? So, if you've modified it extensively they certainly don't have to give you the cost of the mods, but don't they have to pay an amount that would allow you to replace the car like for like? Either by buying an already modified one, or by modifying another car. Would the insurance ombudsman not deal with this issue?

Now we're getting somewhere. The car in question is not modified but has had a fair amount of work to maintain its condition/reliability/appearance etc. As far as I'm aware insurance does not really factor this in determining a payout figure. So my original query still stands, what covers any potential shortfall to obtain a equivalent vehicle?

[TwigtheWonderkid]

helidan said:

Insurance offers say £700-800, replacement car of equivalent condition, service history, mileage etc. costs £1000. What is there in place to cover the £200-300 shortfall?

Insurers will pay market value. If an equivalent car costs £1000, then you should get £1000 from insurers.

[CYMR0]

helidan said:

Insurance offers say £700-800, replacement car of equivalent condition, service history, mileage etc. costs £1000. What is there in place to cover the £200-300 shortfall?

That's why you refuse the offer and negotiate.

It's not the third party's personal problem - they've purchased the insurance to make you go away in the event that they cause you loss.

Likewise, if it's a claim on your own insurance, you've paid your insurer to indemnify you for your actual loss. If they won't do that, you go through their complaints procedure, to the ombudsman, and potentially then to court - but against them.

If your insurer won't play ball, it's your problem; if the third party insurer won't play ball, that is still the original third party's liability but likewise, the third party has to be indemnified by their insurer so it bounces back to their insurer to deal with.

[paintman]

If you don't like the offer you could raise it with the insurance company. You would need to provide evidence of what it would cost to replace like for like so look on autotrader & download appropriate ads. I would suggest trade ads as many private sellers have totally unrealistic expectations.
Send these to the insurers & see if they increase the offer. if they don't then you will have to take it up with the Insurance Ombudsman & see if they agree with you.
Been there, done that. No argument over liability, the other party's insurers accepted full liability. Increased a final 'We're not giving you more than £1000' to 'Here's a cheque for £1300'. Not a quick option though, its the long game & it took 9 months so you would need to buy the replacement wholly out of your own pocket.

[Fittster]

Why does the OP think the insurance company won't pay the market value?

[jkh112]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

helidan said:

Insurance offers say £700-800, replacement car of equivalent condition, service history, mileage etc. costs £1000. What is there in place to cover the £200-300 shortfall?

Insurers will pay market value. If an equivalent car costs £1000, then you should get £1000 from insurers.

+1.
You may have to haggle a little though and don't accept their first offer if you do not agree with it. You will need to gather examples of similar cars for £1000 in order to show their offer of £700 is too low.

[dooosuk]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Insurers will pay market value. If an equivalent car costs £1000, then you should get £1000 from insurers.

This. But you need to accept in your head you will not find another car identical to yours and you won't be reimbursed for wanting to do X, Y and Z to the replacement car you buy.

[marshalla]

So this has gone from a lowish speed bump ( http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... ) with scrapes and dents to your car to "OMG! WRITE OFF! CUSTOM PAINT! CUSTOM RIDE! UPGRADES! LOST ALL MY MONEY!" in the space of a few days ?



Were your insurers aware of all the "extras" on the car ?

[996TT02]

Fittster said:

Why does the OP think the insurance company won't pay the market value?

Apparently (says he of course) he hasn't.

But as previously pointed out, he must take it up with insurers and no one else.

Obviously insurers may try to lowball and will always make an "average condition" payout. If the car was in exceptional condition then that should be taken into consideration, as far as replacement value goes.

Not much more to be added.