335i/435i/S4/C450 AMG..... dying concept? Time for 'M' diesel?

[Ares]

Chat with a gym buddy this morning who is just in the process of swapping his Audi S4 for a 435d...his reason being the sub-prime RS/M-Power/AMG cars are a dying concept, if they use petrol.

Got me thinking.... I've just got my 640d upgraded to 370bhp/730Nm....details here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...


That same diesel power is already available off the shelf with BMW's 50d engine. Give it a year or two, the engine will likely filter down model ranges offering the same/greater BHP and 50% more torque than even developed versions of the sub-performance brands; 335i/435i/S4/S5/C450 AMG/etc...and performance that will challenge the best.

For some, the devil's fuel will never be good enough...but is that market, removing the petrolhead that goes for the full-fat M/RS/AMG, big enough? Or is the M-Power/AMG/RS diesel just waiting in the wings to take over this market.

[sjg]

Nope. IMO diesel popularity is down to:

- favourable taxation (mostly CO2 based) which will change as air quality becomes more important and things diesels do poorly at (NO2, particulates, etc) will count against them.
- torquey power delivery that suits how a lot of people drive - low revs, lots of throttle, no need to change gear.

I'd expect petrol/electric hybrids (electric boost filling in any deficiencies of the petrol engine) instead.

[CarAbuser]

I think the problem with performance diesels in the lack of exhaust noise (some people tried to make the 335d sound good but none succeeded) and the fact they aren't all that economical.

I remember reading countless threads over at e90post about 335d vs 335i. One thing which stood out to me was the mpg claim on the 335d for most owners being in the low 30s, only 5mpg~ higher than the real world figures being touted by the petrol owners. Not so great when you are paying 6p more per litre.

I'm not sure how the economy figures have changed with the 50d engine but I know the newer petrol engines are slightly better on fuel so I imagine they are both close.

I think instant shove from electric motors will be the next big thing.

[hornetrider]

Pffft, they sound like tractors innit.

[Dave Hedgehog]

a dying concept? with all the pollution the cause? heavy taxes and penalties are coming the way of diesel cars

[bennyboysvuk]

I have an M135i. Would I have considered it as an M135d? Absolutely not. Part of the joy is the noise and the revs and the diesel just doesn't tick those boxes.

[bosshog]

Definitely not. I'm back to driving petrol after a long period of diesels. I forgot how much better they are for me. Currently have a 335i and the exhaust note alone sold me, yet alone the rev range and stupendous gobs of torque. The 335d did absolutely nothing for me. Older diesels are just trouble - I think there are going to be a lot of pissed off owners coming the next 5 years what with DPF failures/replacements and the same for turbos.

[Baryonyx]

If you could afford petrol, you'd get the petrol model.

[Wills2]

Ares said:

For some, the devil's fuel will never be good enough...but is that market, removing the petrolhead that goes for the full-fat M/RS/AMG, big enough? Or is the M-Power/AMG/RS diesel just waiting in the wings to take over this market.

The market isn't just the UK, the biggest markets love petrol USA etc...

[mwstewart]

Diesel in a sports/performance car? No thanks. Buy the petrol if you can afford it.

[thelawnet]

Diesel is horrid. The performance cars cost £15k+ more than the slow models, if you can burn that much cash on a faster engine, you shouldn't care about the fuel consumption.

[Blanchie]

CarAbuser said:

I think the problem with performance diesels in the lack of exhaust noise (some people tried to make the 335d sound good but none succeeded) and the fact they aren't all that economical.

I remember reading countless threads over at e90post about 335d vs 335i. One thing which stood out to me was the mpg claim on the 335d for most owners being in the low 30s, only 5mpg~ higher than the real world figures being touted by the petrol owners. Not so great when you are paying 6p more per litre.

I'm not sure how the economy figures have changed with the 50d engine but I know the newer petrol engines are slightly better on fuel so I imagine they are both close.

I think instant shove from electric motors will be the next big thing.

disagree, my A6 family hack has been mistaken for a V8 with the noise from the exhaust....ok there's 2 speakers in it piping out V8 noises but hey it sounds good and no worse than XR3i's sticking Cheery bombs on in the day hahaha

[bakerstreet]

bosshog said:

Definitely not. I'm back to driving petrol after a long period of diesels. I forgot how much better they are for me. Currently have a 335i and the exhaust note alone sold me, yet alone the rev range and stupendous gobs of torque. The 335d did absolutely nothing for me. Older diesels are just trouble - I think there are going to be a lot of pissed off owners coming the next 5 years what with DPF failures/replacements and the same for turbos.

5 Years time? We are there now. Have you been living under a rock? Car forums are full of people with DPF/Injector/EGR issues. Some mid naughties diesel cars are now worth a pittance because people know that one injector issue will be more expensive to fix that what the car is worth.

I think Ford's ecoboost 3cyl/1ltr/turbo lump is a turning point. These engines are getting excellent mpg and petrol. I can see more cars going that way. Maybe the next 330D will eventually be a four pot with two turbos. Is the latest 328i a four pot with a turbo?

As for older diesels are just trouble. It depends what you define as old. the previous 335D has a number of well documented issues and some of them are supercar money to fix (Turbos IIRC)

[scherzkeks]

For most of the estate/sedan M/AMG/RS cars, I'd be fine with a diesel. Gobs of torque, cheaper fuel and tax (here in Germany at least), improved economy, and emissions systems that are improving each year.

Some of them don't even sound half bad anymore. The diesel Macan actually sounds ok (as ridiculous as the rest of the car is). Diesel performance motors will continue to improve with trickle down tech., so it is only a matter of time until some really good products hit the market (not that some have not already).

[toon10]

CarAbuser said:

I remember reading countless threads over at e90post about 335d vs 335i. One thing which stood out to me was the mpg claim on the 335d for most owners being in the low 30s, only 5mpg~ higher than the real world figures being touted by the petrol owners. Not so great when you are paying 6p more per litre.

Pretty much this. Normal diesels are fine at what they do but a lot of the performance ones don't really offer too much cost benefit. Add the extra cost of buying the diesel model and you'd have to really prefer the power delivery to justify one over the petrol.

I've driven plenty of diesels but never once thought about buying one with my own money. My initial "ooh this isn't too shabby" is quickly met with "oh, I need to change up now." I just don't get the feel good factor with a small power band.

[aeropilot]

bakerstreet said:

I think Ford's ecoboost 3cyl/1ltr/turbo lump is a turning point. These engines are getting excellent mpg and petrol. I can see more cars going that way. Maybe the next 330D will eventually be a four pot with two turbos. Is the latest 328i a four pot with a turbo?

BMW have a new 1.5L 3 cyl petrol turbo out already (and is the engine in the i8 hybrid sportscar) and yes, the 328i is a 4-pot petrol turbo.

[captainsl0w]

There will always be a market for higher/high-end performance vehicles; a driving experience diesels cant match (yet?) In terms of throttle response/soundtrack/power delivery. Generally speaking in sales terms no doubt performance diesels will out compete, many non-purists keen for something that ticks more of the boxes for what youd want out of a single vehicle ownership.

[Vaud]

I think Clarkson is right with the i8. It's not their quite yet, but they are heading in the right direction.

France has already said (IIRC) they went too far with diesel and will look to rebalance towards hybrid/petrol.

[SuperHangOn]

We could be well be on the verge of anti-diesel taxation given the political BS recently.

[Horse Pop]

SuperHangOn said:

We could be well be on the verge of anti-diesel taxation given the political BS recently.

Very much this.