Suggestions for first RWD car?
Discussion
Technically, I have actually owned three RWD cars before (mk2 MX5, E30 325i Cabriolet, C-Class diesel estate family snotter) but maybe they weren't the best handling examples, so I never really gelled with them in fast road driving and to be honest, I feel more confident driving FWD and AWD cars quickly.
The MX5 felt like it didn't have enough power and too much grip and when it let go, it let go suddenly, the E30 was plain scary in anything other than perfectly dry conditions and the C-Class was just a family cruiser and to be honest didn't feel noticeably RWD but then I never pushed it that hard.
Many of the cars that I would like to own in the future are powerful RWD cars but I feel like something RWD with modest power but sublime handling in order to become more familiar with the handling characteristics of RWD would be a good stepping stone to those cars for me.
It would be a daily driver, so would need to meet the following criteria:
less than 10 years old;
4/5 seats (as I have two young children)
30+ mpg
I would also want a manual transmission.
The first three cars that spring to mind are:
BMW 320 Si. I like the rarity value and with the chassis tweaks, light engine and the fact that the ride and handling haven't been ruined by M-Sport, possibly the best handling E90 this side of an M3? However, on paper 170bhp from 2.0 litres sounds unimpressive but maybe it's all in the delivery? I seem to remember the E30 and E36 318iS being well-rated despite their modest power outputs.
Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ. Seems pretty perfect but still relatively expensive (starting price for used models c. 14k?) and how useable are those rear seats?
Mazda RX8 R3: I've always liked these but the histrionics of that engine and the high fuel consumption does put me off.
Which of these would be a good option for re-discovering RWD? Any more suggestions?
The MX5 felt like it didn't have enough power and too much grip and when it let go, it let go suddenly, the E30 was plain scary in anything other than perfectly dry conditions and the C-Class was just a family cruiser and to be honest didn't feel noticeably RWD but then I never pushed it that hard.
Many of the cars that I would like to own in the future are powerful RWD cars but I feel like something RWD with modest power but sublime handling in order to become more familiar with the handling characteristics of RWD would be a good stepping stone to those cars for me.
It would be a daily driver, so would need to meet the following criteria:
less than 10 years old;
4/5 seats (as I have two young children)
30+ mpg
I would also want a manual transmission.
The first three cars that spring to mind are:
BMW 320 Si. I like the rarity value and with the chassis tweaks, light engine and the fact that the ride and handling haven't been ruined by M-Sport, possibly the best handling E90 this side of an M3? However, on paper 170bhp from 2.0 litres sounds unimpressive but maybe it's all in the delivery? I seem to remember the E30 and E36 318iS being well-rated despite their modest power outputs.
Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ. Seems pretty perfect but still relatively expensive (starting price for used models c. 14k?) and how useable are those rear seats?
Mazda RX8 R3: I've always liked these but the histrionics of that engine and the high fuel consumption does put me off.
Which of these would be a good option for re-discovering RWD? Any more suggestions?
I don't know how big you are ( how much legroom you want ) and how big your kids are but I would all go for a trial "sitting" in the Gt86 before you set your heart on one. If it's just occasional rear seat use you might be ok but it was too small for us ( boys aged 12 and 10 ) to do long trips/hols in
Firstly, I wouldn't view RWD as something scary or to be approached carefully - it's completely intuitive and once you've done a few miles it feels like how all cars should be - FWD's the tricky beast that takes a while to learn how to get the most out of in my experience.
Out of those examples that you've quoted, I've driven several E90s, but not the famous 320si, and I've driven an RX8. The RX8 disappointed me - the geo seemed to change for the worse when you leant on it in a corner and whilst it wasn't a bad car per se it never really impressed me, which is a shame as I love Japanese cars and found the rotary engine very interesting so wanted to own one - the mpg will also shock you from what you've said. The E90s I've tried have all been good, but ride and handling largely depends on the wheel and tyre combination, plus I can't stand the throttle response from most of the petrol models (other than the V8 M3, which is fine), so I tend to prefer the low spec diesel models for fluidity and cornering enjoyment, because they don't have that initial throttle lag (turbo lag on the other hand is all about straights, where throttle response is irrelevant imho) and the base spec wheels and tyres are, as with most cars, the ones to go for (again, the M3 is an exception as the suspension is beautifully well sorted for its std wheels). I'd like to think that the 320si combines the best of all worlds and as such I'd love to try one. I've not tried a GT86, but I've heard very good things, and I'm a big fan of Toyota, having owned two (mk1 MR2 and Celica GT4) that were a pleasure to own and very reliable. If it were me I'd be test driving all three, but if your tastes are anything like mine then I'd be focusing on finding a good 320si and GT86 to try. If you decide on the 320si then do try a 330i - they'll top your 30mpg easily and are wonderful engines (smooth, they sound great, good spread of torque etc) - the throttle response may not bother you, and if it doesn't, those straight sizes are utterly lovely things to have under the bonnet (I've had four of them! Two cable throttle E36s, an E46 and a Z4 Coupé, the latter two were sold on after ~6 months as I just couldn't get on with the lag, but I can confirm that the other aspects of the famous straight six just got better as the years went on).
Out of those examples that you've quoted, I've driven several E90s, but not the famous 320si, and I've driven an RX8. The RX8 disappointed me - the geo seemed to change for the worse when you leant on it in a corner and whilst it wasn't a bad car per se it never really impressed me, which is a shame as I love Japanese cars and found the rotary engine very interesting so wanted to own one - the mpg will also shock you from what you've said. The E90s I've tried have all been good, but ride and handling largely depends on the wheel and tyre combination, plus I can't stand the throttle response from most of the petrol models (other than the V8 M3, which is fine), so I tend to prefer the low spec diesel models for fluidity and cornering enjoyment, because they don't have that initial throttle lag (turbo lag on the other hand is all about straights, where throttle response is irrelevant imho) and the base spec wheels and tyres are, as with most cars, the ones to go for (again, the M3 is an exception as the suspension is beautifully well sorted for its std wheels). I'd like to think that the 320si combines the best of all worlds and as such I'd love to try one. I've not tried a GT86, but I've heard very good things, and I'm a big fan of Toyota, having owned two (mk1 MR2 and Celica GT4) that were a pleasure to own and very reliable. If it were me I'd be test driving all three, but if your tastes are anything like mine then I'd be focusing on finding a good 320si and GT86 to try. If you decide on the 320si then do try a 330i - they'll top your 30mpg easily and are wonderful engines (smooth, they sound great, good spread of torque etc) - the throttle response may not bother you, and if it doesn't, those straight sizes are utterly lovely things to have under the bonnet (I've had four of them! Two cable throttle E36s, an E46 and a Z4 Coupé, the latter two were sold on after ~6 months as I just couldn't get on with the lag, but I can confirm that the other aspects of the famous straight six just got better as the years went on).
kambites said:
If your MX5 was snappy once you breached the limits, it was broken or at least had the geometry all wrong. Try driving one that's set up properly. 
Does this naturally happen with age? I'm not feeling confident in my 98' MK1, as the OP describes, it's very twitchy and the steering goes light at speed.Would four wheel alignment sort this out?
Rickyy said:
Does this naturally happen with age? I'm not feeling confident in my 98' MK1, as the OP describes, it's very twitchy and the steering goes light at speed.
Would four wheel alignment sort this out?
I've often wondered this. I didn't actually own it for long enough to go and get it checked out (9 months). At the time, it was only 9 months old with 3000 miles though. I have since driven my dad's mk 3.5 MX5, which feels considerably better (although my mk2 was OK up until the limit) but I didn't push my dad's car, as I have only driven it once when it was brand new on the day that he picked it up!Would four wheel alignment sort this out?
s m said:
I don't know how big you are ( how much legroom you want ) and how big your kids are but I would all go for a trial "sitting" in the Gt86 before you set your heart on one. If it's just occasional rear seat use you might be ok but it was too small for us ( boys aged 12 and 10 ) to do long trips/hols in
Only 5 foot 8 and my kids are 2 and 1, so headroom and legroom not too much of an issue (although they are both still in car seats, so the BMW or RX8 would certainly be easier to load them into!They look pretty tempting but the thought that you can buy the other two for the price of a GT86/BRZ is quite a sobering thought.
white_goodman said:
s m said:
I don't know how big you are ( how much legroom you want ) and how big your kids are but I would all go for a trial "sitting" in the Gt86 before you set your heart on one. If it's just occasional rear seat use you might be ok but it was too small for us ( boys aged 12 and 10 ) to do long trips/hols in
Only 5 foot 8 and my kids are 2 and 1, so headroom and legroom not too much of an issue (although they are both still in car seats, so the BMW or RX8 would certainly be easier to load them into!They look pretty tempting but the thought that you can buy the other two for the price of a GT86/BRZ is quite a sobering thought.
Rickyy said:
Does this naturally happen with age? I'm not feeling confident in my 98' MK1, as the OP describes, it's very twitchy and the steering goes light at speed.
Would four wheel alignment sort this out?
Alignment does go out over time, especially if you bash a few potholes etc. So well worth getting it done - make sure its a place that does it properly adjusting camber & caster not just toe, MX5s are very adjustable in that regard.Would four wheel alignment sort this out?
Interesting, only one of your cars actually meets your own criteria 
If you want something which is practically usable, isn't too challenging but is most definitely rear-wheel-drive once you get right up it, you can't go far wrong with a 3-series. I'd get an E90 330i, though. I haven't driven a 320si, but the beauty of the big six is the ability to provoke it in almost any gear, and of course it sounds magnificent. 272bhp is plenty in a car that size, 175 perhaps somewhat lacking.
If you want something which is practically usable, isn't too challenging but is most definitely rear-wheel-drive once you get right up it, you can't go far wrong with a 3-series. I'd get an E90 330i, though. I haven't driven a 320si, but the beauty of the big six is the ability to provoke it in almost any gear, and of course it sounds magnificent. 272bhp is plenty in a car that size, 175 perhaps somewhat lacking.
GravelBen said:
Rickyy said:
Does this naturally happen with age? I'm not feeling confident in my 98' MK1, as the OP describes, it's very twitchy and the steering goes light at speed.
Would four wheel alignment sort this out?
Alignment does go out over time, especially if you bash a few potholes etc. So well worth getting it done - make sure its a place that does it properly adjusting camber & caster not just toe, MX5s are very adjustable in that regard.Would four wheel alignment sort this out?
Poor alignment could certainly be a culprit, as could worn dampers and bushes (although not with the 3,000 mile 9 month old MX5 mentioned). Cars with a finer balance are obviously more easily affected by changes in these things.
As for confidence and driving techniques, if it helps, from the track day instruction that I've done, the two most common driving problems are a) coasting around corners and b) turning the wheel continuously more and more when cornering, rather than plotting an even arc around the bend and holding the wheel still before unwinding it after the apex as power is brought in. Most people I've instucted who aren't confident or who are spinning a lot do one or both of these things, and after 20 minutes of practising balanced cornering they're fine.
As for confidence and driving techniques, if it helps, from the track day instruction that I've done, the two most common driving problems are a) coasting around corners and b) turning the wheel continuously more and more when cornering, rather than plotting an even arc around the bend and holding the wheel still before unwinding it after the apex as power is brought in. Most people I've instucted who aren't confident or who are spinning a lot do one or both of these things, and after 20 minutes of practising balanced cornering they're fine.
RX8's are good fun but not as good as the RX7 which made the high fuel consumption worthwhile.
Here's an alternative that handles well.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Or gor for a 325i the 320si while a sweet handling car can be hard work after a while especially compared to a 325i
Here's an alternative that handles well.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Or gor for a 325i the 320si while a sweet handling car can be hard work after a while especially compared to a 325i
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