Stopped by Northern Rail - No ticket

[mattydoh]

Hi,

Just travelled from Whalley to Manchester Victoria on the mail a Northern Rail train, no ticket office at Whalley. Went on to the train and for the first half hour no conductor past so had a wander and couldn't find one.

Got off the train at Manchester (have never been to Victoria before so didn't know which way was out) and had a wander, walked out of the station which I now realise was a big mistake with the intention of entrance = ticket counter and pay for the ticket at which point two Northern Rail employees stopped me and took down my details for non payment. I offered to pay there and then, either direct to them or to a ticket office if they could point me in the right direction. Not allowed apparently!

I use the train regularly (but not between the two stations in question) and always pay and have receipts to prove and was fully intending to pay but a bit disoriented.

I am willing to pay a fine but just wondering if this will go against my criminal record?

Apologies for any spelling mistakes - writing this on my phone.

[Dave Hedgehog]

if there where staff available to stop you, why didn't you ask them where to pay?

[mattydoh]

Dave Hedgehog said:

if there where staff available to stop you, why didn't you ask them where to pay?

I didn't know they were staff - plain clothes. Only when they stopped did they put there passes on show at which point I immediately offered to pay.

[Rick101]

Fair cop. Suck it up.

I'm not a fan of the way 'revenue protection' is done on the whole but it seems you've been caught out.

[Grey Ghost]

mattydoh said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

if there where staff available to stop you, why didn't you ask them where to pay?

I didn't know they were staff - plain clothes. Only when they stopped did they put there passes on show at which point I immediately offered to pay.

So you looked for a company representative on the train to pay and none were visible (uniformed or otherwise) and yet two plain clothed company representatives knew you had used the train service, followed you off of the train and then nabbed you for non payment ?????

Surely a quick email to Head Office detailing this and they would back off. Can't have it both ways; if a ticket office or payment method is not available at the starting station or on the train itself.

[covboy]

How did they know you hadn't paid ?

[mattydoh]

Rick101 said:

Fair cop. Suck it up.

I'm not a fan of the way 'revenue protection' is done on the whole but it seems you've been caught out.

Yup no questions about fair cop. I was out of the station with no ticket. As said, while I didn't know the station I shouldn't have left (despite my intentions to go back in and find a ticket counter once I got my bearings).

As I said, I am willing to pay a fine I am just concerned about having a criminal offence.

[Rude-boy]

Rick101 said:

Fair cop. Suck it up.

I'm not a fan of the way 'revenue protection' is done on the whole but it seems you've been caught out.

I am not a fan but if the OP is being genuine, and I have no real reason to doubt him at this point, I have a massive degree of sympathy that he appears to have been caught out not paying for something he could not pay for as there was no one to pay before he was stopped.

In OP's shoes I likely would have been heading for the door to have a smoke before wasting 30 odd minutes of my life paying for the ticket I should have been able to pay for on the train or prior to departure at the station.

[Pothole]

mattydoh said:

Rick101 said:

Fair cop. Suck it up.

I'm not a fan of the way 'revenue protection' is done on the whole but it seems you've been caught out.

Yup no questions about fair cop. I was out of the station with no ticket. As said, while I didn't know the station I shouldn't have left (despite my intentions to go back in and find a ticket counter once I got my bearings).

As I said, I am willing to pay a fine I am just concerned about having a criminal offence.

I don't think it is a criminal offence, no.

[Magic919]

Generally the way out is signposted, so I can't see a Court being sympathetic. It does result in a criminal record if found guilty according to here http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/t...

[paintman]

If it does go anywhere then you could plead not guilty on the grounds given in your original post - no intent to avoid payment and that you were unable to do so either at your boarding station or on the train due to the train company's failure to have systems in place for you to do so and that you were stopped before being able to pay at Victoria as you'd never been there before & were trying to find a ticket machine to pay.
Whether they accept your argument is another matter & as always obtain qualified legal advice!

[V8forweekends]

There really ought to be some test of reasonableness applied regarding how difficult they make it to actually obtain a flaming ticket.

I haven't been to Manchester on the train much but everywhere I go (daytimes) these days seems to have ticket barriers and/or inspectors, so in your shoes I'd have had to ask them before exiting.

Edited by V8forweekends on Friday 13th March 17:05

[BobSaunders]

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/t...

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/t...

Edited by BobSaunders on Friday 13th March 17:21

[SVTRick]

I was under the impression that the new automatic barriers process your ticket and if valid
open so you can leave the station or gain access whichever way your going.
So why have a way out that bypasses this system?

If there is no means to extract payment from you it's no wonder revenue is being lost.
Try getting a ticket on way to Twickenham on a match day when booking office is shut and some tt cant operate the self service machine resulting in mooosive long queue ....
And there is not ticket check when you leave en masse either

[Magog]

OP the forum you want to be asking this question on is here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=152

There will be some helpful people on there (there will also be some unhelpful judgemental people) but it will help if you give an honest and open account of what happened straight off. There are different bits of law/regulations that cover railway ticketing. The consequences will depend on which piece of legislation Northern are threatening to prosecute you under.

[Rick101]

Which exit did you leave by? I can't see how you could get to the exit/entrance unless you went upstairs to the arena.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_MCV/pla...

I'm guessing you were on the 14:50 so went into platform 4?

Edited by Rick101 on Friday 13th March 17:53

[valiant]

Was there no ticket machines, Either in the ticket office or on either platforms?

What about a pertis machine?

If any where available at the station you departed from then you're bang to rights I'm afraid.

[mattydoh]

Rick101 said:

Which exit did you leave by? I can't see how you could get to the exit/entrance unless you went upstairs to the arena.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_MCV/pla...

I'm guessing you were on the 14:50 so went into platform 4?

That may well be the way I went, like I say I am not familiar with the station at all but that looks right - I did go up some stairs (following the signs for connecting services assuming there would be a ticket booth there) at which point I saw the exit and figured the easiest way rather than keep guessing and working around the building work to just go out and come back in again.

[mattydoh]

valiant said:

Was there no ticket machines, Either in the ticket office or on either platforms?

What about a pertis machine?

If any where available at the station you departed from then you're bang to rights I'm afraid.

Absolutely nothing. Whalley train station has a few benches and that's your lot.

[essayer]

Whalley has no ticket machines according to National Rail. All Northern services have a guard don't they? Puts you on a sticky wicket as the onus is on you to find them
If you were stopped exiting the station you don't really have much defence.

Post over on railforums and search their archives - first thing to do is to wait for Northern to write to you. Then promptly reply with a coherent response, IMO you're best to offer a settlement to avoid court action, but get advice first.

It's unlikely to result in a criminal record but it is a possibility.