Can't "feel" the backend
Discussion
I've recently upgraded from a Chim to a Tuscan RR. So far, I've only had one heart jolt when the back end kicked out on a damp country road.
Having previously spun my Chim several turns down the a404 I now fear and respect the power in the Tuscan. Taking it easy in the wet.
Only thing is, I really don't feel that the back end is ever gripping the road when the tarmac's damp. Having read the forum's comments on braking being as dangerous as accelerating would someone tell me the answer to the following:
1) I accelerate hard enough for the back to slide a little (15") to the left doing 40 mph with oncoming traffic - how do I regain control safely?
2) I'm bombing along the outside lane of the M4 westbound near Newport where the roads are twisty and the left bend ahead convinces me to sloooowww down. How do I do this safely and if you use phrases like "Heal and Toe", please explain them!?
(BTW I will do a track day to learn these properly but in the meantime...)
Thanks
Having previously spun my Chim several turns down the a404 I now fear and respect the power in the Tuscan. Taking it easy in the wet.
Only thing is, I really don't feel that the back end is ever gripping the road when the tarmac's damp. Having read the forum's comments on braking being as dangerous as accelerating would someone tell me the answer to the following:
1) I accelerate hard enough for the back to slide a little (15") to the left doing 40 mph with oncoming traffic - how do I regain control safely?
2) I'm bombing along the outside lane of the M4 westbound near Newport where the roads are twisty and the left bend ahead convinces me to sloooowww down. How do I do this safely and if you use phrases like "Heal and Toe", please explain them!?
(BTW I will do a track day to learn these properly but in the meantime...)
Thanks
heel and toe (or ball and side as it should be known) is like double de-clutching with bells and whistles.
on a downchange (whilst braking) , press the clutch and put gear lever to neutral.
keep braking with right foot.
lift clutch and match revs to the gear you are about to engage. (using side of right foot)
keep braking all the time.
press clutch and engage new gear whilst matching revs.
will be very difficult to start with but will allow you to brake hard and change down without locking the back end. i suggest buying a copy of Jackie Stewart’s High Performance Driving book for a start and read as many driving guides as you can. Bob Bondurant's one is very good also.
take a ride drive course, or similar such as HPC.
try to space out your braking and down changes. don't rush them, bunch them together or let the revs flare very high when you change down. don't bang the gears or the clutch. remember brake pads are cheaper than clutches or gearboxes
don't put on steering lock while you are braking heavily. feed in the power. if you spin the wheels you're too aggressive. steer smoothly. try to unsettle the car as little as possible.
check tyre pressures. our tuscan s is recommended at 25 all round. we use 24.
check geometry/get an alignment check.
::edited:: do everything smoothly. don't ever jump off the throttle or brakes.
for situation 1: ease off throttle gently and take steering to straightahead. However, you should avoid getting into this situation on the road if you can help it. be more gentle getting on the throttle. doesn't mean you can't use all the power or all the revs, just squeeze the pedal instead of banging it open.
situation 2: read the road ahead, further ahead. look further down the road. look for clues as to where road goes. always have an escape route for if things go wrong- ie, space if the tail comes out or if nose runs wide.
main points: Look very far ahead, use all the controls smoothly
>> Edited by tuscan_thunder on Monday 17th January 14:05
on a downchange (whilst braking) , press the clutch and put gear lever to neutral.
keep braking with right foot.
lift clutch and match revs to the gear you are about to engage. (using side of right foot)
keep braking all the time.
press clutch and engage new gear whilst matching revs.
will be very difficult to start with but will allow you to brake hard and change down without locking the back end. i suggest buying a copy of Jackie Stewart’s High Performance Driving book for a start and read as many driving guides as you can. Bob Bondurant's one is very good also.
take a ride drive course, or similar such as HPC.
try to space out your braking and down changes. don't rush them, bunch them together or let the revs flare very high when you change down. don't bang the gears or the clutch. remember brake pads are cheaper than clutches or gearboxes
don't put on steering lock while you are braking heavily. feed in the power. if you spin the wheels you're too aggressive. steer smoothly. try to unsettle the car as little as possible.
check tyre pressures. our tuscan s is recommended at 25 all round. we use 24.
check geometry/get an alignment check.
::edited:: do everything smoothly. don't ever jump off the throttle or brakes.
for situation 1: ease off throttle gently and take steering to straightahead. However, you should avoid getting into this situation on the road if you can help it. be more gentle getting on the throttle. doesn't mean you can't use all the power or all the revs, just squeeze the pedal instead of banging it open.
situation 2: read the road ahead, further ahead. look further down the road. look for clues as to where road goes. always have an escape route for if things go wrong- ie, space if the tail comes out or if nose runs wide.
main points: Look very far ahead, use all the controls smoothly
>> Edited by tuscan_thunder on Monday 17th January 14:05
For the car control safely thing - do a proper driving course. Not just a trackday (though I recommend it afterwards) I can recommend a Don Palmer day - but it kills your tyres. Have also heard good things about ride drive - but thats less about learning the cars behaviour and more about learning how to enjoy your car safely on road IIRC.
tuscan_thunder said:
a 'proper' heel and toe includes a double de clutch.
You can heel-n-toe without double-declutching, and vice-versa. It is up to you whether you choose to do both together. They do different things and are necessary in different situations. You may have got into the habit of doing both, but that does not mean that it is always appropriate. To imply that double-declutching is an integral part of a heel-n-toe gear change is IMO misleading particularly when your comments addressed at somebody who isn't familiar with either.
GreenV8S said:
a 'proper' heel and toe includes a double de clutch.
You can heel-n-toe without double-declutching, and vice-versa. It is up to you whether you choose to do both together. They do different things and are necessary in different situations. You may have got into the habit of doing both, but that does not mean that it is always appropriate. To imply that double-declutching is an integral part of a heel-n-toe gear change is IMO misleading particularly when your comments addressed at somebody who isn't familiar with either.
i'd hardly call it misleading only perhaps moving to intermediate level before beginner has been mastered. i think, ideally you need to learn how to double de-clutch and simply put a blip in. if you can learn how to double-de and heel and toe you can then decide which option is most appropriate.
"They do different things and are necessary in different situations."
erm.... they do the same thing, basically, they allow a smoother downshift, allow the lower gear to be selected more easily and help prevent the rear end locking.
i think if you ask any racer, esp historic racers where cars have no sequential box, they will double de-clutch. in the 80s most Formula One drivers double-declutched and heel and toe-d. i'm quite sure 99% of drivers at any goodwood event double de-clutch.
i would argue it is a skill worth learning, which, when one is proficient in carrying it out, can make even day to day driving far smoother.
i learnt how to heel and toe with a double de-clutch at age 12 trying to slow down tractors. downhill with a 26ton load and a typical tractor gearbox which dislikes downchanges whilst stamping on the brakes made it a necessity.
LJK Setright would suggest that any downchange without a double declutch was not a proper gearchange!
deeen: fangio did have synchro, in the Mercs, Maserati 200S, 450S and in the 250F at least.
t-t: I have done no research so must bow to your superior knowledge on the historic racers. However, if he was going to double declutch anyway, why would a race car builder bother with the extra weight, rotational inertia and complexity of a synchro 'box?
The two skills do different jobs. Heel n toe means you can match the engine revs to the rear wheel speed when downshifting at the same time as braking. This can be done without double declutching if you have a synchro gearbox (all modern cars?)
Double declutching is a skill necessary to match the internal gearbox speeds on a non-synchro gearbox. With a synchro gearbox it is irrelevant in everyday driving, IMHO.
LJKS said lots of things... I thought he advocated clutchless gearchanges? A most satisfying skill which I practice badly. Can't imagine clutchless double declutching... [disappearsupownbackside smiley]
The two skills do different jobs. Heel n toe means you can match the engine revs to the rear wheel speed when downshifting at the same time as braking. This can be done without double declutching if you have a synchro gearbox (all modern cars?)
Double declutching is a skill necessary to match the internal gearbox speeds on a non-synchro gearbox. With a synchro gearbox it is irrelevant in everyday driving, IMHO.
LJKS said lots of things... I thought he advocated clutchless gearchanges? A most satisfying skill which I practice badly. Can't imagine clutchless double declutching... [disappearsupownbackside smiley]
tuscan_thunder said:I'm with Peter on this one, and you say "ask any racer", well, I race and I have never double de-clutched, however I do heel and toe. Peter also competes, so also has some idea of what he is talking about.
i'd hardly call it misleading only perhaps moving to intermediate level before beginner has been mastered. i think, ideally you need to learn how to double de-clutch and simply put a blip in. if you can learn how to double-de and heel and toe you can then decide which option is most appropriate.
"They do different things and are necessary in different situations."
erm.... they do the same thing, basically, they allow a smoother downshift, allow the lower gear to be selected more easily and help prevent the rear end locking.
i think if you ask any racer, esp historic racers where cars have no sequential box, they will double de-clutch. in the 80s most Formula One drivers double-declutched and heel and toe-d. i'm quite sure 99% of drivers at any goodwood event double de-clutch.
i would argue it is a skill worth learning, which, when one is proficient in carrying it out, can make even day to day driving far smoother.
Double-declutching is not the same as heeling and toeing, and is not necessary in a modern car, while heeling and toeing is a very useful skill to learn, especially when driving a rear wheel drive sportscar.
IMO the one thing which is absolutely critical in a powerful rwd car is to match the engine revs to the road speed when you change down. To do this requires blipping the throttle. The heel-and-toe technique allows you to do this while braking. Being able to brake and change down safely makes it much easier and safer to make progress. Of course if you don't heel-and-toe you can still match the engine revs by coming off the brakes and blipping the throttle as normal, but this disturbs the car more and means you spend more time coasting. The heel-and-toe technique IMO should be considered an essential technique for every TVR driver.
Double declutching addresses a completely different problem. It allows you to match the gearbox input shaft speed to the gearbox output shaft speed. If you don't do this and your gearbox doesn't have working synchromesh hubs, the gearbox will crunch each time you change gear. If you drive a historic racer with no synchros, or a tractor with no synchros, or a car with a knackered gearbox with worn out synchros, or a car which has spent the last hour driving round a race track with overheated synchroes, this is a useful technique to have. There is negligeable benefit doing this with a modern car in good working order.
There are various reasons NOT to double declutch: it makes the gear change take longer, so the driver spends longer in the 'heel-and-toe' position which makes it harder to control the braking, and steering with one hand, and concentrating on pedals and gearlever at a time when they should be assessing road speed, lines and hazards. It's rewarding as a driver to be able to carry all this off, but I have to question how often it is appropriate. I certainly wouldn't encourage novice drivers to experiment with it, whereas I most definitely WOULD encourage them to learn to match revs using heel-and-toe.
>> Edited by GreenV8S on Monday 17th January 17:22
Double declutching addresses a completely different problem. It allows you to match the gearbox input shaft speed to the gearbox output shaft speed. If you don't do this and your gearbox doesn't have working synchromesh hubs, the gearbox will crunch each time you change gear. If you drive a historic racer with no synchros, or a tractor with no synchros, or a car with a knackered gearbox with worn out synchros, or a car which has spent the last hour driving round a race track with overheated synchroes, this is a useful technique to have. There is negligeable benefit doing this with a modern car in good working order.
There are various reasons NOT to double declutch: it makes the gear change take longer, so the driver spends longer in the 'heel-and-toe' position which makes it harder to control the braking, and steering with one hand, and concentrating on pedals and gearlever at a time when they should be assessing road speed, lines and hazards. It's rewarding as a driver to be able to carry all this off, but I have to question how often it is appropriate. I certainly wouldn't encourage novice drivers to experiment with it, whereas I most definitely WOULD encourage them to learn to match revs using heel-and-toe.
>> Edited by GreenV8S on Monday 17th January 17:22
I'm with you Peter; H&T is a very rewarding skill to learn, not least because it sounds great and your passenger will think you are a driving God!
On a more practical note, and bowing to your superior mastery of all things greased, maybe it would be useful to explain why H&T is a good idea?
On a more practical note, and bowing to your superior mastery of all things greased, maybe it would be useful to explain why H&T is a good idea?
for a good car control course thats VFM try www.carlimits.com - ive done about 6 days there now...you can never have too much training 
and yes, you really want to use H&T in the Tuscan...particularly when braking hard into a bend and going say from 4th to 2nd...its not something you can learn on here though...you really need to be shown, then practice, and more practice
and yes, you really want to use H&T in the Tuscan...particularly when braking hard into a bend and going say from 4th to 2nd...its not something you can learn on here though...you really need to be shown, then practice, and more practice
I also moved from a Chim to A Tuscan. I was never happy with the handling characteristics of the Tuscan. So much so I think there must have been a fault with mine. The back end broke away far too easily. It even broke away when accelerating in a straight line in the dry. It had the tendancy to slew the back end out (into incomong traffic!)In the short time I had the blessed thing I never got to like the way it drove.
Luckily, it was at the dealers 11 of the 18 weeks I had it being mended.
Luckily, it was at the dealers 11 of the 18 weeks I had it being mended.
No point in having it explained on a forum unless you put it into practice - www.carlimits.com - learn to control what your car does when, and most importantly why it does it. I've done 3 days with Andrew now and will be doing plenty more.
2 Smokin Barrels said:
I was never happy with the handling characteristics of the Tuscan.
You may be right that there was something wrong with yours, because the ones I've been in on track seemed beautifully balanced. Maybe just a matter of too much power for the conditions though? They do have an awful lot of grunt.
I drive a Ford Escort. Good thats got that out the way...
But I will have a proper car one day!
A couple of times I have been in situations, through my own fault, were I wanted to change down a gear but if I did would be going into the corner to fast.
I decided that I would try and teach myself heel and toe to avoid the situation arising again. So one Sunday afternoon went and found a deserted industrial estate and set about trying to get to grips with it.
I have large feet, size 13 and fairly normal width. That is one of the reasons I chose the escort becuase the foot well was large enough and I didnt hit the pedals by accident. However, I find the pedals to far apart to heel and toe. Is there a solution to this? I have been trying it with my right foot in a 10:30 position, is this what you would expect?
TIA
Hugh
But I will have a proper car one day!
A couple of times I have been in situations, through my own fault, were I wanted to change down a gear but if I did would be going into the corner to fast.
I decided that I would try and teach myself heel and toe to avoid the situation arising again. So one Sunday afternoon went and found a deserted industrial estate and set about trying to get to grips with it.
I have large feet, size 13 and fairly normal width. That is one of the reasons I chose the escort becuase the foot well was large enough and I didnt hit the pedals by accident. However, I find the pedals to far apart to heel and toe. Is there a solution to this? I have been trying it with my right foot in a 10:30 position, is this what you would expect?
TIA
Hugh
GreenV8S said:
I was never happy with the handling characteristics of the Tuscan.
You may be right that there was something wrong with yours, because the ones I've been in on track seemed beautifully balanced. Maybe just a matter of too much power for the conditions though? They do have an awful lot of grunt.
I've driven a few of em...none as bad as mine!
hugh1 said:
I drive a Ford Escort. Good thats got that out the way...
But I will have a proper car one day!
A couple of times I have been in situations, through my own fault, were I wanted to change down a gear but if I did would be going into the corner to fast.
I decided that I would try and teach myself heel and toe to avoid the situation arising again. So one Sunday afternoon went and found a deserted industrial estate and set about trying to get to grips with it.
I have large feet, size 13 and fairly normal width. That is one of the reasons I chose the escort becuase the foot well was large enough and I didnt hit the pedals by accident. However, I find the pedals to far apart to heel and toe. Is there a solution to this? I have been trying it with my right foot in a 10:30 position, is this what you would expect?
TIA
Hugh
I use the big toe and ball of my right foot on the brake and the right hand edge of the heel on the throttle
While stationary, have a look in the foot well and see where your feet line up with the pedals, it may be better to use your foot turned out for your foot size and Escotr pedals
Graham
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