Mind-blowing acceleration
Discussion
I've been lucky enough to have driven a few of the current Supercar crop (eg 12C, 458, 599).
Yesterday had first ride on a proper, modern superblke (BMW S 1000 R).
First point: despite it having amazing performance it couldn't have been easier to ride. Smooth power delivery, great gearbox and agile, wonderful handling. So easy to place on the road. Brakes so strong and good that I was only using one finger.
But twist the grip and the performance is otherworldly. I hardly scratched the surface of the performance (impossible outside of a race track) but one quick test highlighted the power. Was chugging along at 70 in 6th. Gave it full throttle and the speedo jumped 20. I'm sure it can't have been instantaneous but it felt like it!
All modern Supercars are far too fast and powerful to be appreciated easily on the road. The bike was the same but because there is always so much more for the rider to do on a bike I think it would be more fun at (near) legal speeds.
This isn't a bike v car thread. I love both. Just saying if you get a chance to sample a Superbike it is an amazing experience.
Yesterday had first ride on a proper, modern superblke (BMW S 1000 R).
First point: despite it having amazing performance it couldn't have been easier to ride. Smooth power delivery, great gearbox and agile, wonderful handling. So easy to place on the road. Brakes so strong and good that I was only using one finger.
But twist the grip and the performance is otherworldly. I hardly scratched the surface of the performance (impossible outside of a race track) but one quick test highlighted the power. Was chugging along at 70 in 6th. Gave it full throttle and the speedo jumped 20. I'm sure it can't have been instantaneous but it felt like it!
All modern Supercars are far too fast and powerful to be appreciated easily on the road. The bike was the same but because there is always so much more for the rider to do on a bike I think it would be more fun at (near) legal speeds.
This isn't a bike v car thread. I love both. Just saying if you get a chance to sample a Superbike it is an amazing experience.
Agree, though the added sense of danger on a bike makes it feel far more thrilling to me. I've only done a few track experience days in supercars, and while some felt fast, there was never the thrill you get on a bike. The 458 felt the most "involved", but you are still cossetted in a big metal box with servo assisted controls to remove you from the experience.
Though one advantage a fast car has over a fast bike, you don't have to look down to check your speed! That can get you in trouble very quickly.
Though one advantage a fast car has over a fast bike, you don't have to look down to check your speed! That can get you in trouble very quickly.
When I first got onto a super bike, having gone down the direct access route, my mind just couldn't deal with the mind scrambling acceleration and sensory overload the bike gave (when I had a GT3 RS vs my first ever bike - a Ducati Panigale Tricolore).
Any time I took the RS out after that it felt slow + just didn't give the thrill of speed that a bike can give. Have got over the "honeymoon" period with the bike, but it still just the craziest thing you can have on the road - still can't believe in today's constrained / health and safety environment that you're allowed to go from never having ridden a bike to sat on a 195bhp monster in 8 weeks!
Only thing that comes close to it now is the new addition into the garage
Any time I took the RS out after that it felt slow + just didn't give the thrill of speed that a bike can give. Have got over the "honeymoon" period with the bike, but it still just the craziest thing you can have on the road - still can't believe in today's constrained / health and safety environment that you're allowed to go from never having ridden a bike to sat on a 195bhp monster in 8 weeks!
Only thing that comes close to it now is the new addition into the garage
I have owned a y2k lightly modified unrestricted Hayabusa from new, tech has moved on a bit but not much is quicker top end, I have seen 190 in 5th gear on a straight where my Murcielago SV wouldn't get close. It is an experience everyone should try once. Unfortunately the danger makes a bike more thrilling.
I think another key difference between bikes and cars is the test drive / ride. Had a test drive of a BMW car and the salesperson came with me, drove first then allowed me to drive a short and boring route. Went to BMW bike dealer and he tosses me the keys to go and play on something with 160 bhp but weighs 200 kg.
Same with all the bike dealers. Call ahead, turn up, have a cup of tea or coffee and then ride off to have fun.
Same with all the bike dealers. Call ahead, turn up, have a cup of tea or coffee and then ride off to have fun.
duggan said:
When I first got onto a super bike, having gone down the direct access route, my mind just couldn't deal with the mind scrambling acceleration and sensory overload the bike gave (when I had a GT3 RS vs my first ever bike - a Ducati Panigale Tricolore).
Any time I took the RS out after that it felt slow + just didn't give the thrill of speed that a bike can give. Have got over the "honeymoon" period with the bike, but it still just the craziest thing you can have on the road - still can't believe in today's constrained / health and safety environment that you're allowed to go from never having ridden a bike to sat on a 195bhp monster in 8 weeks!
Only thing that comes close to it now is the new addition into the garage
Lovely combination. Love the 12c in orange. But you are right that the Ducati is better looking. Any time I took the RS out after that it felt slow + just didn't give the thrill of speed that a bike can give. Have got over the "honeymoon" period with the bike, but it still just the craziest thing you can have on the road - still can't believe in today's constrained / health and safety environment that you're allowed to go from never having ridden a bike to sat on a 195bhp monster in 8 weeks!
Only thing that comes close to it now is the new addition into the garage
12c is genuinely quick. First car I have driven that is comparable to a bike (albeit a middleweight) in acceleration terms.
Only two cars I have ever been in have given me "sweet lord" acceleration.
First was a 993 Turbo - I drove it not knowing it had been modified and was running about 546bhp and a similar amount of torque. Thing was slow as heck up to 3,000-ish RPM, then it kicked in like an old two stroke. Mind boggling.
The other was a Corvette C6 Z06, just thoroughly brutal. Got a passenger ride on an airfield day, what a machine. Had real trouble getting the power down though.
I have been fortunate enough to ride many bikes, they are on another level but I find cars more enjoyable these days as I don't find bikes let up as much.
First was a 993 Turbo - I drove it not knowing it had been modified and was running about 546bhp and a similar amount of torque. Thing was slow as heck up to 3,000-ish RPM, then it kicked in like an old two stroke. Mind boggling.
The other was a Corvette C6 Z06, just thoroughly brutal. Got a passenger ride on an airfield day, what a machine. Had real trouble getting the power down though.
I have been fortunate enough to ride many bikes, they are on another level but I find cars more enjoyable these days as I don't find bikes let up as much.
Alez said:
Problem with bikes (if there should be any) is bends: they're just slow. Good fun nevertheless 
Not sure I agree. I watched an EVO video this week with a Panigale against an Audi R10 and according to the video the corner speeds were similar. Cars much more stable under braking, which is where they make up time on bikes as they can brake later and harder. I think what you mean is that most bike riders are slow in the corners. That is down to skill and bravery of the rider and nothing to do with the bike.
Esceptico said:
Not sure I agree. I watched an EVO video this week with a Panigale against an Audi R10 and according to the video the corner speeds were similar. Cars much more stable under braking, which is where they make up time on bikes as they can brake later and harder.
I think what you mean is that most bike riders are slow in the corners. That is down to skill and bravery of the rider and nothing to do with the bike.
Interesting! I am sure I have seen the opposite being stated in different car vs. bike videos in the past, and indeed I corner a lot slower on bike than on car. However, the engineer in me has always wondered why that should be the case, as the physics involved are not sending a clear message to me as to why. Nice one, Esceptico.I think what you mean is that most bike riders are slow in the corners. That is down to skill and bravery of the rider and nothing to do with the bike.
Alez said:
Interesting! I am sure I have seen the opposite being stated in different car vs. bike videos in the past, and indeed I corner a lot slower on bike than on car. However, the engineer in me has always wondered why that should be the case, as the physics involved are not sending a clear message to me as to why. Nice one, Esceptico.
I watched a couple of other bike v car videos last night. A few points that seem to come out were:- in long sweeping, fast corners the car and bike were evenly matched
- in tight slow corners the car was faster
- when there is a quick change of direction required the car is faster
Corner speed being measured is the slowest speed. Clearly the speed through the whole corner is about more than that because you have the braking distance on one side but then you have the acceleration away from the apex too. I suspect the bike loses out going into the apex but gains afterwards.
The above is only for road cars on road tyres. Once you compare bikes with cars that have substantial downforce then it is game over for the bike I think.
Tyres may also play a role. I suspect that bike tyres are relatively much more extreme than car tyres as they wear out so quickly (and need to be stickier as the contact patch for a bike is much smaller). At least bike tyres feel quick sticky when you get them hot. That is a subjective feeling only.
I think on the road it is advisable to corner a bit slower on a bike as much harder to deal with the unexpected (even poor road surface) and much smaller margin for error.
Esceptico said:
I watched a couple of other bike v car videos last night. A few points that seem to come out were:
- in long sweeping, fast corners the car and bike were evenly matched
- in tight slow corners the car was faster
- when there is a quick change of direction required the car is faster
Corner speed being measured is the slowest speed. Clearly the speed through the whole corner is about more than that because you have the braking distance on one side but then you have the acceleration away from the apex too. I suspect the bike loses out going into the apex but gains afterwards.
The above is only for road cars on road tyres. Once you compare bikes with cars that have substantial downforce then it is game over for the bike I think.
Tyres may also play a role. I suspect that bike tyres are relatively much more extreme than car tyres as they wear out so quickly (and need to be stickier as the contact patch for a bike is much smaller). At least bike tyres feel quick sticky when you get them hot. That is a subjective feeling only.
I think on the road it is advisable to corner a bit slower on a bike as much harder to deal with the unexpected (even poor road surface) and much smaller margin for error.
Well said and pretty much spot on.
I have been riding superbikes for near on 33 years now and also have a super car (458 spider) to play with and whilst the car over the bike feels safer overall when you are really "on it" the feeling the bike gives (2015 s1000rr ) is sublime and almost unreal in acceleration terms. Any supercars nowadays will catch any superbike if a peice of tarmac is long enough because all current bikes are limited to 186 mph but very few will catch the bike until the 186 has been reached.
- in long sweeping, fast corners the car and bike were evenly matched
- in tight slow corners the car was faster
- when there is a quick change of direction required the car is faster
Corner speed being measured is the slowest speed. Clearly the speed through the whole corner is about more than that because you have the braking distance on one side but then you have the acceleration away from the apex too. I suspect the bike loses out going into the apex but gains afterwards.
The above is only for road cars on road tyres. Once you compare bikes with cars that have substantial downforce then it is game over for the bike I think.
Tyres may also play a role. I suspect that bike tyres are relatively much more extreme than car tyres as they wear out so quickly (and need to be stickier as the contact patch for a bike is much smaller). At least bike tyres feel quick sticky when you get them hot. That is a subjective feeling only.
I think on the road it is advisable to corner a bit slower on a bike as much harder to deal with the unexpected (even poor road surface) and much smaller margin for error.
Well said and pretty much spot on.
I have been riding superbikes for near on 33 years now and also have a super car (458 spider) to play with and whilst the car over the bike feels safer overall when you are really "on it" the feeling the bike gives (2015 s1000rr ) is sublime and almost unreal in acceleration terms. Any supercars nowadays will catch any superbike if a peice of tarmac is long enough because all current bikes are limited to 186 mph but very few will catch the bike until the 186 has been reached.
Interesting, Esceptico.
Esceptico said:
Tyres may also play a role. I suspect that bike tyres are relatively much more extreme than car tyres as they wear out so quickly (and need to be stickier as the contact patch for a bike is much smaller). At least bike tyres feel quick sticky when you get them hot. That is a subjective feeling only.
I have the same feeling about this. However, while it is true that the contact patch for a bike is much smaller, it is also true that its overall weight is around an order of magnitude lower.Esceptico said:
I think on the road it is advisable to corner a bit slower on a bike as much harder to deal with the unexpected (even poor road surface) and much smaller margin for error.
That is an excellent explanation for my own experience, which does not include bike on track, just cars (but both on the road).Think the bike differential is being missed in this post... I love my cars but adore bikes, even managed to do some racing - bikes are ALL about the corners... Any club handed fool can get on a bike, throw a leg over and experience hyper car levels of acceleration. At Mugello last year I accelerated my race bike up to 190 mph (to the limiter) down the main straight, then scrubbed speed off for a 40 mph turn one - all within a kilometre. Sure it's pretty hairy stuff but not too hard to master...
The true skill and thrill on a fast bike is through the corner. People think knee down is the holy grail - I would say more a right of passage as once you're there and pick up real speed all that knee down effort gets in the way so you actually end up doing it less to go faster...
Bikes are so multi dimensional I guess it's a bit like golf, with every day being a school day, frustrating when it doesn't click and the best fun with your clothes on when it does.
And now the toys...
The true skill and thrill on a fast bike is through the corner. People think knee down is the holy grail - I would say more a right of passage as once you're there and pick up real speed all that knee down effort gets in the way so you actually end up doing it less to go faster...
Bikes are so multi dimensional I guess it's a bit like golf, with every day being a school day, frustrating when it doesn't click and the best fun with your clothes on when it does.
And now the toys...
I've driven my share of fast cars and had a limited amount of time on a fast bike.
I don't know if its just me but the bike, although as fast as it is, just doesn't give me the same 'rewards' as a car can do.
For example, if I'm on the public roads then I am after relative comfort, in-car toys, all with the performance to easily overtake when I wish. The car does all that.
On track then I am after ability to go fast and play around with the balance on 4 wheels along with perfecting that all-time great trail-braking, apex, accelerating combination through corners.
I know much of the track aspect can be done on a bike, and it could be argued that you are a bit more involved on a bike, with having to shift one's weight around on the seat, but I don't know, the car just goes that one step further for me. Its not always about outright acceleration.
Something about oversteer too, being able to balance a machine beyond the limits of traction.
My cousin, who's Ducati I have driven is polar opposite of me. He is most definitely a bike man through and through.
I don't know if its just me but the bike, although as fast as it is, just doesn't give me the same 'rewards' as a car can do.
For example, if I'm on the public roads then I am after relative comfort, in-car toys, all with the performance to easily overtake when I wish. The car does all that.
On track then I am after ability to go fast and play around with the balance on 4 wheels along with perfecting that all-time great trail-braking, apex, accelerating combination through corners.
I know much of the track aspect can be done on a bike, and it could be argued that you are a bit more involved on a bike, with having to shift one's weight around on the seat, but I don't know, the car just goes that one step further for me. Its not always about outright acceleration.
Something about oversteer too, being able to balance a machine beyond the limits of traction.
My cousin, who's Ducati I have driven is polar opposite of me. He is most definitely a bike man through and through.
AA999 said:
I've driven my share of fast cars and had a limited amount of time on a fast bike.
I don't know if its just me but the bike, although as fast as it is, just doesn't give me the same 'rewards' as a car can do.
For example, if I'm on the public roads then I am after relative comfort, in-car toys, all with the performance to easily overtake when I wish. The car does all that.
On track then I am after ability to go fast and play around with the balance on 4 wheels along with perfecting that all-time great trail-braking, apex, accelerating combination through corners.
I know much of the track aspect can be done on a bike, and it could be argued that you are a bit more involved on a bike, with having to shift one's weight around on the seat, but I don't know, the car just goes that one step further for me. Its not always about outright acceleration.
Something about oversteer too, being able to balance a machine beyond the limits of traction.
My cousin, who's Ducati I have driven is polar opposite of me. He is most definitely a bike man through and through.
All down to personal taste at the end of the day, what you feel most comfortable in and the level of 'risk' you are prepared to accept. Sure going fast (and all that goes with that) in a fast car is one thing - but having the skill / risk appetite to go fast (and I mean properly fast) on a fast bike is just on another level. Bikes are so multidimensional and the rider ALWAYS makes the difference whereas the same just can’t be said in a car (under steer / over steer and break balance really being the only real control points – add low side, high side, wheelie control and just hanging on the thing with a bike). I know some fast car drivers will shoot me down / not agree but I would then wonder if they have thrown a leg over a 200+ hp race bike that wants to spit you off every corner - yet still manage to nail a good lap time... I don't know if its just me but the bike, although as fast as it is, just doesn't give me the same 'rewards' as a car can do.
For example, if I'm on the public roads then I am after relative comfort, in-car toys, all with the performance to easily overtake when I wish. The car does all that.
On track then I am after ability to go fast and play around with the balance on 4 wheels along with perfecting that all-time great trail-braking, apex, accelerating combination through corners.
I know much of the track aspect can be done on a bike, and it could be argued that you are a bit more involved on a bike, with having to shift one's weight around on the seat, but I don't know, the car just goes that one step further for me. Its not always about outright acceleration.
Something about oversteer too, being able to balance a machine beyond the limits of traction.
My cousin, who's Ducati I have driven is polar opposite of me. He is most definitely a bike man through and through.
End of the day both are very satisfying to ride / drive fast and spend years mastering...
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