964RS/9m MoTeC conversion hits 304lbft & 324bhp!
Discussion
...is the direct benefit of having your own in-house rolling road, allowing me more time to play with customers cars before they go out of the door.
In this case whilst 9m Panelcraft have been busy converting an Amethyst 964RS into an exact wide body 3.8RS replica, I fitted the owners original standard engine into another RS so that I can pre-map his Motec conversion before the widebody hits the road. The only modifications are a cat bypass, cup pipe and 9m intake pipe.
Running on Optimax and with a 15C inlet air temp (don't you just love the winter for tuning?) after several days playing I achieved a stump pulling 303.8lbft at just 4790rpm (that's a whopping 412Nm) with 324.4bhp at 5910rpm, measured without corrections at an awesome 297bhp at the tyre!
I suspected that peak power arrive a little too early, so now that we have oiked the engine back out of the surrogate RS we pulled off the cam covers to reveal 2 broken inlet valve springs. Chat with customer has now seen us replacing the springs with 9m Racing springs & titanium retainers (cheaper than buying a set of new springs & standard retainers from Porsche) without stripping the engine. Now I just can't wait to get the engine back into the widebody and put it back on the rollers. IF it now holds the torque for another 200-300 rpm we will easily see over 330bhp.
Valve spring breakage seems to be a common problem in higher mileage RS's, this engine has done around 50,000 miles, but another one we rebuilt just before Xmas after an over-rev had similar faults as well as damaged retainers. My advice to anyone with an RS that is up on the miles is to have the springs/retainers replaced on the next major service to possibly avoid a catastrophic failure of the valve train.
In this case whilst 9m Panelcraft have been busy converting an Amethyst 964RS into an exact wide body 3.8RS replica, I fitted the owners original standard engine into another RS so that I can pre-map his Motec conversion before the widebody hits the road. The only modifications are a cat bypass, cup pipe and 9m intake pipe.
Running on Optimax and with a 15C inlet air temp (don't you just love the winter for tuning?) after several days playing I achieved a stump pulling 303.8lbft at just 4790rpm (that's a whopping 412Nm) with 324.4bhp at 5910rpm, measured without corrections at an awesome 297bhp at the tyre!
I suspected that peak power arrive a little too early, so now that we have oiked the engine back out of the surrogate RS we pulled off the cam covers to reveal 2 broken inlet valve springs. Chat with customer has now seen us replacing the springs with 9m Racing springs & titanium retainers (cheaper than buying a set of new springs & standard retainers from Porsche) without stripping the engine. Now I just can't wait to get the engine back into the widebody and put it back on the rollers. IF it now holds the torque for another 200-300 rpm we will easily see over 330bhp.
Valve spring breakage seems to be a common problem in higher mileage RS's, this engine has done around 50,000 miles, but another one we rebuilt just before Xmas after an over-rev had similar faults as well as damaged retainers. My advice to anyone with an RS that is up on the miles is to have the springs/retainers replaced on the next major service to possibly avoid a catastrophic failure of the valve train.
marcevo1 said:
how much is a typical motec conversion for a 3.8 993 non varioram?
where abouts rev range is the torque?
marc
To save any ambiguity I will post the power curve once we have retested/mapped the engine with its new valve springs.
A conversion on a 993NVR would work out at slightly less than the 964RS at around £3400+VAT. However there are definitely design features about the 993NVR engine that reduce the power & torque potential, so unfortunately do not expect as spectacular a result as the RS. The very best 993NVR engine to date has eeked out 313bhp on the dyno, but I have to say that this is one that we did a top end rebuild on before the session, so it was a bit of an exception, I think that 300-310 would be more likely the result.
I fitted a Motec package onto a stock 1990 964 once and struggled to get the engine to pull over 295bhp. I suspect that the plastic manifolds of the RS do the business more than the early alloy ones, add in a blueprinted engine with compression/flow matched heads and it may explain the difference.
So, my recommendations would be an upgrade to later manifolds at the same time, so add the cost of these and the additional labour to the basic RS conversion price.
So, my recommendations would be an upgrade to later manifolds at the same time, so add the cost of these and the additional labour to the basic RS conversion price.
Thanks Dazren.
Hot news is that new 9m Race springs & titanium retainers have now been fitted (engine out, cam covers off only, so it can be done at a major service if anyone is worried about their engine) and the car will be ready for the dyno again before the end of the week.
Then I'll post the dyno curve.
Hot news is that new 9m Race springs & titanium retainers have now been fitted (engine out, cam covers off only, so it can be done at a major service if anyone is worried about their engine) and the car will be ready for the dyno again before the end of the week.
Then I'll post the dyno curve.
ninemeister said:
I fitted a Motec package onto a stock 1990 964 once and struggled to get the engine to pull over 295bhp. I suspect that the plastic manifolds of the RS do the business more than the early alloy ones, add in a blueprinted engine with compression/flow matched heads and it may explain the difference.
So, my recommendations would be an upgrade to later manifolds at the same time, so add the cost of these and the additional labour to the basic RS conversion price.
Thanks Colin,
So if I were to go with the plastic manifolds, larger injectors, bypass pipe, race springs & titanium retainers etc. What sort figures could realistically be achieved assuming the engine is currently in top shape (as it should be following the rebuild)?
flatsix said:
So if I were to go with the plastic manifolds, larger injectors, bypass pipe, race springs & titanium retainers etc. What sort figures could realistically be achieved assuming the engine is currently in top shape (as it should be following the rebuild)?
The only way to know for sure is to book it in. There are a lot of subtle differences between the RS and the standard engine, usually these maintain the quoted factory power differential of 10bhp across the range, eg best 9m live remapped standard engine 289bhp, best 9m live remapped 964RS 300bhp.
Final figures for our Motec'd standard 964RSL are:
Power 326.8 bhp @ 5960rpm
Torque 305.0 lbft (414Nm) @ 4800rpm
Best torque on the day matched our previous best with our Motec+1 at 311.1lbft or 422Nm, but this run was cut short due to wheelspin.
Keep a lookout, I will be posting the dyno curve on our website soon.
ninemeister said:
...stuff... usually these maintain the quoted factory power differential of 10bhp across the range
Final figures for our Motec'd standard 964RSL are:
Power 326.8 bhp @ 5960rpm
Torque 305.0 lbft (414Nm) @ 4800rpm
Sorry to be pedantic, but does this mean with a good standard engine, using cat bypass, plastic manifolds, enlarged TB & injectors etc. figures in the region of Power 315 bhp and a commensurate torque figure would be possible?
flatsix said:
Sorry to be pedantic, but does this mean with a good standard engine, using cat bypass, plastic manifolds, enlarged TB & injectors etc. figures in the region of Power 315 bhp and a commensurate torque figure would be possible?
The figures quoted below are what I have achieved on our dyno this week with an "off the shelf" 50,000 mile 964RS. This may be an exceptional engine, or it may be a tired one, but on average we regularly see 320bhp for our basic Motec conversion on a 964RS.
Allowing for differences in detail build quality between the RS and the standard engine, I would say that 310bhp & 390Nm is more likely to be the result with a 1992-93 964 engine in similar condition.
johnfm said:
299 BHP at the rear wheels is exceptional, to the point that I would expect it in BOLD, italic 48 pt!!
If you extrapolate from 299 to 326, you are also using a very conservative figure for drivetrain losses.
Well done, both for the engineering, and not pissing in our pockets!
We have used the same Bosch inertia dyno for 15 years and have always found consistent results, e.g. the Motec +1 package posts 310 bhp at the tyre for 339bhp flywheel.
I have to say though that I was gutted not to find the last smidgeon of power to get 300 at the tyre, but hey, 299 is pretty good in my books. I have another 2 x 964RS Clubsports scheduled for conversion in the next week or so, I'll post the results of these as a comparison.
As for pissing in pockets, you make your own minds up, there is indeed a lot of b***s*** around, hopefully you won't find any coming from me, I would not sleep at night if I sold a 310bhp 993VR 3.8 conversions for £8000 that made less power than standard.
Out of the all the UK 'tuners', from personal experience the only one who deliver's is Ninemeister. I've either experienced, or heard first hand of horror stories when dealing with other tuners. We're talking well known names within the UK and European tuning fields.
People are naturally drawn to big name tuners by the kudos their name has. They can't get their hand round the fact that a 'little' outfit from oop north can come up with the goods.
Take my 993 GT2, bought with a Roock tuning kit that was supposed to give 480bhp. Car was running so rich it failed the SVA test, and when Colin's guy mapped it it was showing 418bhp - 12 less than standard. It was and EFI ECU that Roock had basterdised.
All this from one of the top names in Europe!!
Oh, and once in had been '9m'd' 521bhp, with a bill for £2k and straight through the SVA.
People are naturally drawn to big name tuners by the kudos their name has. They can't get their hand round the fact that a 'little' outfit from oop north can come up with the goods.
Take my 993 GT2, bought with a Roock tuning kit that was supposed to give 480bhp. Car was running so rich it failed the SVA test, and when Colin's guy mapped it it was showing 418bhp - 12 less than standard. It was and EFI ECU that Roock had basterdised.
All this from one of the top names in Europe!!
Oh, and once in had been '9m'd' 521bhp, with a bill for £2k and straight through the SVA.
993rsr said:
...... a 'little' outfit from oop north ........
Erm... we've now got 11,000 sq ft.
Judging by what I saw when I last went to Germany we are actually "bigger" than Rooke. If you look past their glass showroom through the yard and into their workshop you won't find a fully equipped bodyshop and a chassis dyno nestled in the corner.
Just for the record, the GT2 ended up with the hybrid "Rooke/EFI" ecu in the spares bin, larger injectors, a secondhand Motronic ecu and a remap achieved the dyno result, hence the £2k bill. If JC's car had been equipped with the standard ecu to start with we could have had the job done for just over a grand.
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