Difficult employee - suspect expenses. What to do?
Discussion
Looking for some advice on how best to handle this situation. Sorry it is long winded, there is a summary at the bottom.
Late last year I was put in to a new position. One of my team members has been identified as difficult to deal with from a management perspective. They do not take direction well, only do the bits of the role they are interested in, and have expanded the role to be what they want rather than what they should be doing. Other departments think they are great because they get things done, the problem is they do it completely out of process and with zero regard for chain of command, correct procedures etc. The intention is to try and remove them from the role over the next couple of years. I'll call them person A.
Not long after I started, my boss (person B) asked me to question person A about their corporate credit card use. I did, they got very defensive and dismissive, and walked off. Person B decided we would confront person A and tell them the expense claims wouldn't be approved and they'd have to pay back the money. However, person B spoke to his manager before the meeting and was told not to do that because he (person B) shouldn't have approved suspect claims in the first place (policy actually says they are liable too) so it turned in to person A being told to submit manual claims in the future i.e. stop using the card.
So far person A has submitted a couple of claims: I am suspicious of the mileage being claimed but had no proof anything is wrong. However, after I approved the last claim I became aware of two things:
1) they had been using a car that falls in to the bottom cc bracket for a period of time.
2) they had taken it offsite to a supplier that they usually claim mileage for visiting - I heard them say this in a meeting at the supplier.
Now, because I'd approved and submitted the claim form (and didn't keep a copy - lesson learned) and didn't have access to the log book for the car they'd been using ,I couldn't prove anything.
UNTIL TODAY. I got access to the car they had been using and checked the log book - turns out they did use it for a week AND I got the forms back from payroll: they claimed mileage for two trips during that week using the highest cc bracket on the form. So now I know at least one of them is not right, possibly 2 (they did a huge mileage in 3 days that would tie up with them using it for the trip involved in the 2nd claim).
On Friday I'm going to ask person A for their next mileage claim - I know they were using a car in a lower cc bracket for a couple of weeks - and see if they just submit one for the highest bracket again.
Now, I am not sure how to proceed. If I confront person A they'll say they made a mistake, didn't use that car etc etc (they always have an excuse). If I go to my manager I suspect he'll say tell person A to adjust the form and them tell them they now have to use a pool car to go offsite. i.e. no punishment.
My issue is I have lost all trust in person A, and this coupled with his performance and behavioural issues mean I no longer want him working for me - I can't take 2 more year's off managing this nonsense. So I am thinking of going straight to HR and asking them to make it a disciplinary issue. However, I suspect that may upset my manager.
Only other option I can see if arrange a meeting with HR and my boss at the same time, and raise it there.
I should point out the monetary value involved is not huge, it is not being able to trust them that I have an issue with.
Does anyone have any other suggestions?
SHORT VERSION for those that can't be bothered reading the above.
Difficult team member (person A).
Dodgy use of corporate card by person A not actioned by my boss.
Person A now submitting suspect mileage claim - I now have proof one is dodgy.
Waiting on next claim to see if it is dodgy too.
I no longer trust person A
Should I:
Go straight to HR, get person A disciplined and hopefully out of my team?
OR
Go to my boss who will likely ask me to talk to person A, who will claim it was a mistake, I'll be told to make person A use a pool car from now on (I don't trust them to do that either)
OR
something else? Any ideas?
Late last year I was put in to a new position. One of my team members has been identified as difficult to deal with from a management perspective. They do not take direction well, only do the bits of the role they are interested in, and have expanded the role to be what they want rather than what they should be doing. Other departments think they are great because they get things done, the problem is they do it completely out of process and with zero regard for chain of command, correct procedures etc. The intention is to try and remove them from the role over the next couple of years. I'll call them person A.
Not long after I started, my boss (person B) asked me to question person A about their corporate credit card use. I did, they got very defensive and dismissive, and walked off. Person B decided we would confront person A and tell them the expense claims wouldn't be approved and they'd have to pay back the money. However, person B spoke to his manager before the meeting and was told not to do that because he (person B) shouldn't have approved suspect claims in the first place (policy actually says they are liable too) so it turned in to person A being told to submit manual claims in the future i.e. stop using the card.
So far person A has submitted a couple of claims: I am suspicious of the mileage being claimed but had no proof anything is wrong. However, after I approved the last claim I became aware of two things:
1) they had been using a car that falls in to the bottom cc bracket for a period of time.
2) they had taken it offsite to a supplier that they usually claim mileage for visiting - I heard them say this in a meeting at the supplier.
Now, because I'd approved and submitted the claim form (and didn't keep a copy - lesson learned) and didn't have access to the log book for the car they'd been using ,I couldn't prove anything.
UNTIL TODAY. I got access to the car they had been using and checked the log book - turns out they did use it for a week AND I got the forms back from payroll: they claimed mileage for two trips during that week using the highest cc bracket on the form. So now I know at least one of them is not right, possibly 2 (they did a huge mileage in 3 days that would tie up with them using it for the trip involved in the 2nd claim).
On Friday I'm going to ask person A for their next mileage claim - I know they were using a car in a lower cc bracket for a couple of weeks - and see if they just submit one for the highest bracket again.
Now, I am not sure how to proceed. If I confront person A they'll say they made a mistake, didn't use that car etc etc (they always have an excuse). If I go to my manager I suspect he'll say tell person A to adjust the form and them tell them they now have to use a pool car to go offsite. i.e. no punishment.
My issue is I have lost all trust in person A, and this coupled with his performance and behavioural issues mean I no longer want him working for me - I can't take 2 more year's off managing this nonsense. So I am thinking of going straight to HR and asking them to make it a disciplinary issue. However, I suspect that may upset my manager.
Only other option I can see if arrange a meeting with HR and my boss at the same time, and raise it there.
I should point out the monetary value involved is not huge, it is not being able to trust them that I have an issue with.
Does anyone have any other suggestions?
SHORT VERSION for those that can't be bothered reading the above.
Difficult team member (person A).
Dodgy use of corporate card by person A not actioned by my boss.
Person A now submitting suspect mileage claim - I now have proof one is dodgy.
Waiting on next claim to see if it is dodgy too.
I no longer trust person A
Should I:
Go straight to HR, get person A disciplined and hopefully out of my team?
OR
Go to my boss who will likely ask me to talk to person A, who will claim it was a mistake, I'll be told to make person A use a pool car from now on (I don't trust them to do that either)
OR
something else? Any ideas?
Foliage said:
Prove they fiddle their expenses, gross misconduct, sacked.
This. Gather ye proof together of previous expense fiddles. Small is excellent, as it makes them look even more stupid, and disproves the "ooh, it was a mistake" rubbish. Wait for the next claim, see if it is as you suspect, then take to HR, claim gross misconduct, and provide a nice cardboard receptacle for him to walk away from the building with. Such is life."Making a mistake" on a mileage claim is gross misconduct in your companies?
I doubt it would be with our toothless HR team....
In your position I would look to the redundancy route rather than faffing around with disciplinaries which will take months (assuming he has been there for 2 years+)
It will cost, but will be a saving in the long run and cleaner than a potential tribunal
I doubt it would be with our toothless HR team....
In your position I would look to the redundancy route rather than faffing around with disciplinaries which will take months (assuming he has been there for 2 years+)
It will cost, but will be a saving in the long run and cleaner than a potential tribunal
Muzzer79 said:
"Making a mistake" on a mileage claim is gross misconduct in your companies?
I doubt it would be with our toothless HR team....
In your position I would look to the redundancy route rather than faffing around with disciplinaries which will take months (assuming he has been there for 2 years+)
It will cost, but will be a saving in the long run and cleaner than a potential tribunal
I agree. He sounds like the type of bloke who will go kicking and screaming and you'll end up paying him to shut up anyway.I doubt it would be with our toothless HR team....
In your position I would look to the redundancy route rather than faffing around with disciplinaries which will take months (assuming he has been there for 2 years+)
It will cost, but will be a saving in the long run and cleaner than a potential tribunal
Reorganise the office, put him in charge of "a special project" and then make him redundant in a few months when it turns out the project came to nothing.
Muzzer79 said:
"Making a mistake" on a mileage claim is gross misconduct in your companies?
I doubt it would be with our toothless HR team....
In your position I would look to the redundancy route rather than faffing around with disciplinaries which will take months (assuming he has been there for 2 years+)
It will cost, but will be a saving in the long run and cleaner than a potential tribunal
OP says there is proof of spurious mileage claim (and maybe more to come) - surely that's an open and shut case and the employee won't have a leg to stand on, especially if next claim is also dodgy I doubt it would be with our toothless HR team....
In your position I would look to the redundancy route rather than faffing around with disciplinaries which will take months (assuming he has been there for 2 years+)
It will cost, but will be a saving in the long run and cleaner than a potential tribunal
F3RNY7 said:
What a ridiculous response
Its not though - what if its a genuine mistake (s) or he is actually claiming extra mileage for something else he has done (ie working on another project)Just ask him. You can still escalate a disciplinary/ investigation if youre not happy at what he says, just dont like this 'nuclear button' approach off the bat...
hate to work with you lot.
KAgantua said:
Its not though - what if its a genuine mistake (s) or he is actually claiming extra mileage for something else he has done (ie working on another project)
Just ask him. You can still escalate a disciplinary/ investigation if youre not happy at what he says, just dont like this 'nuclear button' approach off the bat...
hate to work with you lot.
Let's be real, if the employee was doing an 80 mile trip and claimed 85 I doubt the OP would be rushing to HR to talk about it, so I would presume we are talking about some fairly major 'manipulation'. Just ask him. You can still escalate a disciplinary/ investigation if youre not happy at what he says, just dont like this 'nuclear button' approach off the bat...
hate to work with you lot.
Not to mention the previous credit card misuse...
If you think that's acceptable I'd hate to employ you!
KAgantua said:
Its not though - what if its a genuine mistake (s) or he is actually claiming extra mileage for something else he has done (ie working on another project)
Just ask him. You can still escalate a disciplinary/ investigation if youre not happy at what he says, just dont like this 'nuclear button' approach off the bat...
hate to work with you lot.
Genuine mistake my bottom. Genuine mistake is entering 1007 miles when you meant 107. Genuine mistake does not tend to mean claiming the highest mileage rate when using the lowest mileage rate vehicle. Its funny how few "ooh, I claimed less pennies than I could have done" people see, compared to pathetic little sadsacks who think that theft of 5 p a mile is just fine. Its not, it's theft and instant gross misconduct in pretty much everywhere I have ever worked.Just ask him. You can still escalate a disciplinary/ investigation if youre not happy at what he says, just dont like this 'nuclear button' approach off the bat...
hate to work with you lot.
Given the OP said he inherited a problemk, he seems to have a solution open to him, so why not take it. If the OP had come one with a story about Good Old Bob, who everyone loves, and works brilliantly, who seems to have made an unfortunate single error, the replies would have been different. Instead, he has an idiot who persists in stealing a couple of quid in an obvious manner. What's the moral problem here?
sugerbear said:
I thought mileage was claimed at 45p up to 12,000 miles regardless of engine size.
How much is the difference in each expense claim?
How much is the difference in each expense claim?
HMRC Website said:
Advisory Fuel Rates from 1 March 2015
These rates apply from 1 March 2015. You can use the previous rates for up to 1 month from the date the new rates apply.
Engine size Petrol - amount per mile LPG - amount per mile
1400cc or less 11p 8p
1401cc to 2000cc 13p 10p
Over 2000cc 20p 14p
Though the amount is not the issue, the theft is. Most people over 19 view expenses theft as one of the most stupid things that it is possible to do at work. There is more upside to shagging the bosses granddaughter These rates apply from 1 March 2015. You can use the previous rates for up to 1 month from the date the new rates apply.
Engine size Petrol - amount per mile LPG - amount per mile
1400cc or less 11p 8p
1401cc to 2000cc 13p 10p
Over 2000cc 20p 14p
Jasandjules said:
If you have clear evidence of expenses fraud, then take steps to undertake a Gross Misconduct investigation and dismiss if appropriate.
This one - I have heard many appeals against GM, summary dismissal and when the above is managed properly the successful appeal rate approximates to zeroJader1973 said:
Late last year I was put in to a new position. One of my team members has been identified as difficult to deal with from a management perspective. They do not take direction well, only do the bits of the role they are interested in, and have expanded the role to be what they want rather than what they should be doing. Other departments think they are great because they get things done, the problem is they do it completely out of process and with zero regard for chain of command, correct procedures etc. The intention is to try and remove them from the role over the next couple of years. I'll call them person A.
So as a manager you have got an employee who does the job well, is well regarded by other departments who are only interested in the results, but has a low tolerance of management b/s and imposed processes, so you are trying to get rid? Sounds like poor management to me, and your processes and procedures could possibly do with a bit of revision, possibly by person A.Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff