Technique for driving a FWD car fast/on track?
Discussion
Well this is in trackdays so I'm presuming he means track.
I've got a Clio 172 track car, basically with front wheel drive you can take liberties a little because unless you lift off suddenly you aren't going to get oversteer. Your 265 I'm presuming has a diff so basically you want to get on the power early to hook the diff up and let it pull you through the bends.
Next time you're on track get some tuition and chat with the instructor about it.
I've got a Clio 172 track car, basically with front wheel drive you can take liberties a little because unless you lift off suddenly you aren't going to get oversteer. Your 265 I'm presuming has a diff so basically you want to get on the power early to hook the diff up and let it pull you through the bends.
Next time you're on track get some tuition and chat with the instructor about it.
Car is always most stable with some throttle. So if it gets a bit lairy, just get back on the gas. Keeping this simple rule in mind, trail brake nice and deep and aim for a slightly later apex, allowing as straight an exit as possible, thereby minimising the amount of lateral load on the front tyres during acceleration. As long as you're always prepared for oversteer when trail braking and are ready to hit the gas to straighten it out, you should be good! In my experience FWD cars don't break away suddenly so long as you're inputs are smooth (French stuff included!) and will let you get away with murder (e.g. declutching on turn in amongst other things) provided you don't outbrake yourself too severely.
Frimley111R said:
After 10 years of mid engined cars I now have a RS Megane 265. What's the technique for cornering a FWD car?
You need to turn off the traction control for a start (on track, not on the road though leave it on there), they come alive when the electronics aren't messing about.A serious warning though is that it will over steer, a lot more than you might expect especially on lift off or around the transition from throttle to braking.
Brake late and trail into corners and try and maintain 'some' amount of throttle at all times even if it's 10% as it helps load the diff up.
But despite the slightly loose back end they're very easy to control even when things get a bit pair shaped and if you're getting a lot of understeer you're driving it wrong (just as an indicator
)Just constantly think, smooth. At all times, smooth in engage throttle without stamping on it and maintain smooth steering input. No sawing at the wheel. Smooth smooth smooth
Owned the 250 now for a couple of years and done many a spirited drive out and a couple of track days in it now, it's a fun car despite being driven at the front end.
Edited by GrumpyTwig on Monday 11th May 23:16
I'm guessing from your username that you have been running an Elise. I also had a 111R, followed by an R500 and a GT3. They all responded best to smooth steering inputs, careful throttle inputs and generally nothing too aggressive- unless you wanted to go very sideways and wear out your rear tyres.
I also had a Megane 250 Cup, which with the careful application of about £2k and some magic by RS Tuning produced 325 bhp! Other than decent tyres (888s or RSRs), braided lines and RC5 pads the car was standard, no fancy suspension or bushes.
On track, it was hilarious but responded best to proper aggressive driving, with late braking (in a straight line!!) and then a massive dollop of throttle to make it turn in. The standard diff does a great job of pulling the car in to the apex and the back just followed the front. Trail braking works, but the rear could feel pretty loose, although once you get used to the loose feeling, it never felt too lary.
2 things spring to mind about how to make the most of your track time.
Firstly, brakes. They do get bloody hot, so decent pads are essential, as is giving them chance to cool down. I never managed to keep them cool enough for extended track sessions, so I would suggest 15 minutes maximum unless you can fit some cooling ducts. My mate who now owns the car has still not managed to get the brake temperatures down.
Secondly, tyres. On standard suspension, the tyres also get a serious work out and can quickly overheat, so get your tyre pressures sorted and come in if they start to get a bit understeery. Both the 888s and the RSRSs recovered from the abuse after a short rest and were ready to go again.
In short, you have a great car and it should provide you with lots of fun on track. It lacks the precision of a 111R, but it will be as fast at most circuits if not faster and you can get 4 people, suitcases, shopping and heaven only knows what else in it when you aren't hooning it round a race track!
I also had a Megane 250 Cup, which with the careful application of about £2k and some magic by RS Tuning produced 325 bhp! Other than decent tyres (888s or RSRs), braided lines and RC5 pads the car was standard, no fancy suspension or bushes.
On track, it was hilarious but responded best to proper aggressive driving, with late braking (in a straight line!!) and then a massive dollop of throttle to make it turn in. The standard diff does a great job of pulling the car in to the apex and the back just followed the front. Trail braking works, but the rear could feel pretty loose, although once you get used to the loose feeling, it never felt too lary.
2 things spring to mind about how to make the most of your track time.
Firstly, brakes. They do get bloody hot, so decent pads are essential, as is giving them chance to cool down. I never managed to keep them cool enough for extended track sessions, so I would suggest 15 minutes maximum unless you can fit some cooling ducts. My mate who now owns the car has still not managed to get the brake temperatures down.
Secondly, tyres. On standard suspension, the tyres also get a serious work out and can quickly overheat, so get your tyre pressures sorted and come in if they start to get a bit understeery. Both the 888s and the RSRSs recovered from the abuse after a short rest and were ready to go again.
In short, you have a great car and it should provide you with lots of fun on track. It lacks the precision of a 111R, but it will be as fast at most circuits if not faster and you can get 4 people, suitcases, shopping and heaven only knows what else in it when you aren't hooning it round a race track!
I've raced the mid-engined, rear-drive Boxster for three seasons so it was quite an eye-opener to fling a Team HARD VW Cup Mk.V Golf round Brands Indy last year. I'd watched in-car video of my ex-Porsche friend Pottsy drive his Alfa in his new series and his solution to almost every situation was "apply more power". Must say it seemed to work too! Even in the damp not once did I get any oversteer.
Chris.
Chris.
To re-iterate what Mark has said above - you will need to do something with the brakes. They get very hot, very quickly.
The effect will also be more pronounced with a 325bhp Megan than a 265bhp, but these are (for a hatch) heavy, powerful cars.
Limited track sessions or braded lines/Dot5/Performance pads are recommended....and the tyres don't last long. But, they can be properly quick and it's a superb track car.
Book a trackday, have some fun then get some tuition to refine it all.
The effect will also be more pronounced with a 325bhp Megan than a 265bhp, but these are (for a hatch) heavy, powerful cars.
Limited track sessions or braded lines/Dot5/Performance pads are recommended....and the tyres don't last long. But, they can be properly quick and it's a superb track car.
Book a trackday, have some fun then get some tuition to refine it all.
Edited by Terzo204 on Tuesday 12th May 14:42
Thanks all, very helpful. Yes, the car has an LSD.
Having tracked an Elise and driven my Evora in the odd 'spirited' fashion, both are easily up to track work but the Megane is the first car where will consider how much weight is involved and how 'small' the brakes are. They look much small than either Lotus.
I'll give it a go on track with some short sessions and see how it all goes. How much are 19 inch tyres again??
Having tracked an Elise and driven my Evora in the odd 'spirited' fashion, both are easily up to track work but the Megane is the first car where will consider how much weight is involved and how 'small' the brakes are. They look much small than either Lotus.
I'll give it a go on track with some short sessions and see how it all goes. How much are 19 inch tyres again??
You'll probably find its quite light on its tyres, like my 400bhp Focus RS is... Weird!!!
Mostly standard stuff tbh. Keep the weight over the front wheels when cornering, only get on the throttle when you're not going to need to take it off, as it will cause the car to get unsettled pretty quickly.. Similarly finish braking before attempting anything else... If it understeers (mine occasionally does, despite a very good setup) lift off progressively and use the lift off oversteer to point your nose back in the direction you want to go before progressively reapplying the throttle. Just immediately backing off might result in a fairly nasty snap...
Regarding Hardware - I've had DS2500 in the calipers since my first trackday... 1400kg of car is a fair amount to slow down repeatedly with small breaks in-between braking (Similar to the Evora i guess). My standard items started to overheat and degrade massively after 15mins. Soon moved up to grooved discs to help deglaze the pads, now on Sports 356mm 8-Pots with DS2500 on the front and grooved, DS2500 shod on the rear. DOT5.1 fluid too. A few guys run cooling ducts to the calipers, but yet to see much need. I can easily sit on track for 30mins without finding any significant degradation.
I don't see any difference in cornering lines between FR/MR/FF cars - maybe that's a Brands Hatch-ism...
Essentially, if it drives similarly to Ghengis, take it by the scruff of the neck to see the most benefit.
Just for a demo, albeit not the best, the video below (3:00 in) shows a 1:10 lap on a VERY greasy Brands Hatch and having some traffic (red fiesta) to contend with.... Normal lap time is a fair amount less than that.
130mph into Paddock, 1/4 throttle on Paddock entry due to grip levels (watched a lovely E46 go off backwards about 20mins earlier), 1/4 throttle between Druids and Graham Hill as a result of traffic, and 1/4 throttle through Surtees due to changing grip again... normally its just a lift prior to turn in after Cooper straight!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4n-qPl9p4I
Mostly standard stuff tbh. Keep the weight over the front wheels when cornering, only get on the throttle when you're not going to need to take it off, as it will cause the car to get unsettled pretty quickly.. Similarly finish braking before attempting anything else... If it understeers (mine occasionally does, despite a very good setup) lift off progressively and use the lift off oversteer to point your nose back in the direction you want to go before progressively reapplying the throttle. Just immediately backing off might result in a fairly nasty snap...
Regarding Hardware - I've had DS2500 in the calipers since my first trackday... 1400kg of car is a fair amount to slow down repeatedly with small breaks in-between braking (Similar to the Evora i guess). My standard items started to overheat and degrade massively after 15mins. Soon moved up to grooved discs to help deglaze the pads, now on Sports 356mm 8-Pots with DS2500 on the front and grooved, DS2500 shod on the rear. DOT5.1 fluid too. A few guys run cooling ducts to the calipers, but yet to see much need. I can easily sit on track for 30mins without finding any significant degradation.
I don't see any difference in cornering lines between FR/MR/FF cars - maybe that's a Brands Hatch-ism...
Essentially, if it drives similarly to Ghengis, take it by the scruff of the neck to see the most benefit.
Just for a demo, albeit not the best, the video below (3:00 in) shows a 1:10 lap on a VERY greasy Brands Hatch and having some traffic (red fiesta) to contend with.... Normal lap time is a fair amount less than that.
130mph into Paddock, 1/4 throttle on Paddock entry due to grip levels (watched a lovely E46 go off backwards about 20mins earlier), 1/4 throttle between Druids and Graham Hill as a result of traffic, and 1/4 throttle through Surtees due to changing grip again... normally its just a lift prior to turn in after Cooper straight!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4n-qPl9p4I
Edited by Havoc856 on Wednesday 13th May 00:05
Terzo204 said:
A reduced throttle will shift the balance of the car forward, giving it more grip and hooking it up. It also prevent the wheels spinning
You've said and quoted me Ref something I've already mentioned. See 'keep the weight over the front of the car' in my post. Also progressive application of the throttle should counter the wheel spin and increase traction, especially when combined with a soft bump/rebound on the front axle, by keeping the tyres in contact with the Tarmac instead of scrabbling and writhing. I have slightly stiffer springs at the rear and a few more clicks towards hard over the front suspension settings. Works very well. Two clicks back when it's lashing down keeps it progressive. lift off oversteer, I have found over 5yrs of multiple trackdays, is best employed in a powerful FF Hatch, when you've miscalculated an entry speed or run into sudden under steer that threatens to spit you off track ie if your tyres scrub out or you've experienced less than expected braking.
Depending on your suspension setup, it's either progressive or snappy. I've spent a significant amount of time adjusting my setup into a progressive one that roughly corresponds to the amount of throttle I've backed out of. Works really well as a safety net for those moments... Although nothing will save you from operating outside of physics.
If you disagree, so be it. I'm only talking out of my experience.
Edited by Havoc856 on Wednesday 13th May 18:40
Havoc856 said:
Regarding Hardware - I've had DS2500 in the calipers since my first trackday... 1400kg of car is a fair amount to slow down repeatedly with small breaks in-between braking (Similar to the Evora i guess).
All Lotus have huge brakes and I need to be doing endurance racing before they'd fade! However my RS265 seems like a huge lump of metal to slow down repeatedly. The brakes are good but look tiny inside 19" wheels.I've never had them fade, I had the ones in the Clio fade but not these.
Honestly I think if you're getting fade with the Megane you need to either re-look at where you're braking and how or check the fluid and pads you're using. I've been running RC5+ pads in front on mine and they've never hinted at fading, while I'm not driving in competitive motorspot I'm not hanging around.
However even on the OEM pads I did a day at Oulton and they were fine and that place seems very hard on the brakes, had to use the run off in the Clio I had :E
Honestly I think if you're getting fade with the Megane you need to either re-look at where you're braking and how or check the fluid and pads you're using. I've been running RC5+ pads in front on mine and they've never hinted at fading, while I'm not driving in competitive motorspot I'm not hanging around.
However even on the OEM pads I did a day at Oulton and they were fine and that place seems very hard on the brakes, had to use the run off in the Clio I had :E
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