Advice on how to buy a 1980's or 1990's Mercedes
Discussion
I'm used to buying brand new Mercedes & BMW's that are covered under warranty etc.
Recently, I've been really tempted to buy a old Mercedes (perhaps a 300CE or SL), but I'm worried about ending up with something that requires money to be thrown at it all the time.
Can anyone help with advice on the following points:
1) Are there any models that are likely to actually appreciate in value?
2) where are the best places to look to purchase nice, clean 1 or 2 owner old car with FSH without paying silly money?
Any other advice would also be greatly appreciated.
Recently, I've been really tempted to buy a old Mercedes (perhaps a 300CE or SL), but I'm worried about ending up with something that requires money to be thrown at it all the time.
Can anyone help with advice on the following points:
1) Are there any models that are likely to actually appreciate in value?
2) where are the best places to look to purchase nice, clean 1 or 2 owner old car with FSH without paying silly money?
Any other advice would also be greatly appreciated.
I am not convinced significant appreciation is on the cards for anything other than the r107 SL and the w107 SL C, maybe also the c126 SEC (although we are seeing a classic car bubble which will burst sooner or later and the more people come up with reasons why it will not burst, the more likely it is to burst). But there is almost no chance of depreciation.
As for buying, the best advice is to spend a while studying and getting a feel for the market and the cars. Having done that for ten years and having bought six or seven old Mercs for use as daily drivers and having seen countless others bought by friends, my firm view is that all of them need significant work to be rendered fit for daily use. My preference is always to buy from towards the bottom end of the market: then at least I know for sure that everything needs fixing and the car is priced accordingly. I have seen plenty of cars from the specialists selling at top dollar which are very little less shagged out than those in the bargain basement. And I wouldn't go for low mileage: lack of use really kills these cars.
Originality and history and lack of rust are the key features. A car from the south of England will be a lot less rotten than one from the north. You want orange indicators, original wheels, steel or alloy, and original wireless, Becker means you're onto a winner. I always think he best guide to whether a car has been looked after is its tyres. If it is on proper tyres—by which I mean Continental or Michelin—then its owner cares for it and has spent money on it. But every 1980s and 1990s Merc needs new rear suspension, new shocks, myriad new rubber bits and usually new brake, fuel and SLS (if fitted) pipes. Our British car culture is pretty superficial: most people skimp on maintenance and, indeed, don't even think or understand the need for maintenance. We care much more about the looks but hardly at all about the mechanics.
The last two old Mercs I have bought, I spent six months getting them right before pressing them into use. This required pretty serious expenditure, several times more than each car cost. But in use they have proved pretty reliable. However, they're old cars and things will go wrong. They will only work for you if you make that part of the pleasure. You have to come to enjoy suffering, diagnosing and fixing—or paying someone else to fix—the inevitable faults and failures. They do not work like new cars: you cannot treat them like commodities or white goods. You have to immerse yourself in the ownership experience. Otherwise they will just piss you off all the time. The good thing about this is that you need at least two: one to use while the other is at the garage.
As for buying, the best advice is to spend a while studying and getting a feel for the market and the cars. Having done that for ten years and having bought six or seven old Mercs for use as daily drivers and having seen countless others bought by friends, my firm view is that all of them need significant work to be rendered fit for daily use. My preference is always to buy from towards the bottom end of the market: then at least I know for sure that everything needs fixing and the car is priced accordingly. I have seen plenty of cars from the specialists selling at top dollar which are very little less shagged out than those in the bargain basement. And I wouldn't go for low mileage: lack of use really kills these cars.
Originality and history and lack of rust are the key features. A car from the south of England will be a lot less rotten than one from the north. You want orange indicators, original wheels, steel or alloy, and original wireless, Becker means you're onto a winner. I always think he best guide to whether a car has been looked after is its tyres. If it is on proper tyres—by which I mean Continental or Michelin—then its owner cares for it and has spent money on it. But every 1980s and 1990s Merc needs new rear suspension, new shocks, myriad new rubber bits and usually new brake, fuel and SLS (if fitted) pipes. Our British car culture is pretty superficial: most people skimp on maintenance and, indeed, don't even think or understand the need for maintenance. We care much more about the looks but hardly at all about the mechanics.
The last two old Mercs I have bought, I spent six months getting them right before pressing them into use. This required pretty serious expenditure, several times more than each car cost. But in use they have proved pretty reliable. However, they're old cars and things will go wrong. They will only work for you if you make that part of the pleasure. You have to come to enjoy suffering, diagnosing and fixing—or paying someone else to fix—the inevitable faults and failures. They do not work like new cars: you cannot treat them like commodities or white goods. You have to immerse yourself in the ownership experience. Otherwise they will just piss you off all the time. The good thing about this is that you need at least two: one to use while the other is at the garage.
Edited by r129sl on Monday 1st June 09:59
r129sl said:
I am not convinced significant appreciation is on the cards for anything other than the r107 SL and the w107 SL C, maybe also the c126 SEC (although we are seeing a classic car bubble which will burst sooner or later and the more people come up with reasons why it will not burst, the more likely it is to burst). But there is almost no chance of depreciation.
As for buying, the best advice is to spend a while studying and getting a feel for the market and the cars. Having done that for ten years and having bought six or seven old Mercs for use as daily drivers and having seen countless others bought by friends, my firm view is that all of them need significant work to be rendered fit for daily use. My preference is always to buy from towards the bottom end of the market: then at least I know for sure that everything needs fixing and the car is priced accordingly. I have seen plenty of cars from the specialists selling at top dollar which are very little less shagged out than those in the bargain basement. And I wouldn't go for low mileage: lack of use really kills these cars.
Originality and history and lack of rust are the key features. A car from the south of England will be a lot less rotten than one from the north. You want orange indicators, original wheels, steel or alloy, and original wireless, Becker means you're onto a winner. I always think he best guide to whether a car has been looked after is its tyres. If it is on proper tyres—by which I mean Continental or Michelin—then its owner cares for it and has spent money on it. But every 1980s and 1990s Merc needs new rear suspension, new shocks, myriad new rubber bits and usually new brake, fuel and SLS (if fitted) pipes. Our British car culture is pretty superficial: most people skimp on maintenance and, indeed, don't even think or understand the need for maintenance. We care much more about the looks but hardly at all about the mechanics.
The last two old Mercs I have bought, I spent six months getting them right before pressing them into use. This required pretty serious expenditure, several times more than each car cost. But in use they have proved pretty reliable. However, they're old cars and things will go wrong. They will only work for you if you make that part of the pleasure. You have to come to enjoy suffering, diagnosing and fixing—or paying someone else to fix—the inevitable faults and failures. They do not work like new cars: you cannot treat them like commodities or white goods. You have to immerse yourself in the ownership experience. Otherwise they will just piss you off all the time. The good thing about this is that you need at least two: one to use while the other is at the garage.
Sensible post. As for buying, the best advice is to spend a while studying and getting a feel for the market and the cars. Having done that for ten years and having bought six or seven old Mercs for use as daily drivers and having seen countless others bought by friends, my firm view is that all of them need significant work to be rendered fit for daily use. My preference is always to buy from towards the bottom end of the market: then at least I know for sure that everything needs fixing and the car is priced accordingly. I have seen plenty of cars from the specialists selling at top dollar which are very little less shagged out than those in the bargain basement. And I wouldn't go for low mileage: lack of use really kills these cars.
Originality and history and lack of rust are the key features. A car from the south of England will be a lot less rotten than one from the north. You want orange indicators, original wheels, steel or alloy, and original wireless, Becker means you're onto a winner. I always think he best guide to whether a car has been looked after is its tyres. If it is on proper tyres—by which I mean Continental or Michelin—then its owner cares for it and has spent money on it. But every 1980s and 1990s Merc needs new rear suspension, new shocks, myriad new rubber bits and usually new brake, fuel and SLS (if fitted) pipes. Our British car culture is pretty superficial: most people skimp on maintenance and, indeed, don't even think or understand the need for maintenance. We care much more about the looks but hardly at all about the mechanics.
The last two old Mercs I have bought, I spent six months getting them right before pressing them into use. This required pretty serious expenditure, several times more than each car cost. But in use they have proved pretty reliable. However, they're old cars and things will go wrong. They will only work for you if you make that part of the pleasure. You have to come to enjoy suffering, diagnosing and fixing—or paying someone else to fix—the inevitable faults and failures. They do not work like new cars: you cannot treat them like commodities or white goods. You have to immerse yourself in the ownership experience. Otherwise they will just piss you off all the time. The good thing about this is that you need at least two: one to use while the other is at the garage.
Edited by r129sl on Monday 1st June 09:59
PositronicRay said:
r129sl said:
I am not convinced significant appreciation is on the cards for anything other than the r107 SL and the w107 SL C, maybe also the c126 SEC (although we are seeing a classic car bubble which will burst sooner or later and the more people come up with reasons why it will not burst, the more likely it is to burst). But there is almost no chance of depreciation.
As for buying, the best advice is to spend a while studying and getting a feel for the market and the cars. Having done that for ten years and having bought six or seven old Mercs for use as daily drivers and having seen countless others bought by friends, my firm view is that all of them need significant work to be rendered fit for daily use. My preference is always to buy from towards the bottom end of the market: then at least I know for sure that everything needs fixing and the car is priced accordingly. I have seen plenty of cars from the specialists selling at top dollar which are very little less shagged out than those in the bargain basement. And I wouldn't go for low mileage: lack of use really kills these cars.
Originality and history and lack of rust are the key features. A car from the south of England will be a lot less rotten than one from the north. You want orange indicators, original wheels, steel or alloy, and original wireless, Becker means you're onto a winner. I always think he best guide to whether a car has been looked after is its tyres. If it is on proper tyres—by which I mean Continental or Michelin—then its owner cares for it and has spent money on it. But every 1980s and 1990s Merc needs new rear suspension, new shocks, myriad new rubber bits and usually new brake, fuel and SLS (if fitted) pipes. Our British car culture is pretty superficial: most people skimp on maintenance and, indeed, don't even think or understand the need for maintenance. We care much more about the looks but hardly at all about the mechanics.
The last two old Mercs I have bought, I spent six months getting them right before pressing them into use. This required pretty serious expenditure, several times more than each car cost. But in use they have proved pretty reliable. However, they're old cars and things will go wrong. They will only work for you if you make that part of the pleasure. You have to come to enjoy suffering, diagnosing and fixing—or paying someone else to fix—the inevitable faults and failures. They do not work like new cars: you cannot treat them like commodities or white goods. You have to immerse yourself in the ownership experience. Otherwise they will just piss you off all the time. The good thing about this is that you need at least two: one to use while the other is at the garage.
Sensible post. As for buying, the best advice is to spend a while studying and getting a feel for the market and the cars. Having done that for ten years and having bought six or seven old Mercs for use as daily drivers and having seen countless others bought by friends, my firm view is that all of them need significant work to be rendered fit for daily use. My preference is always to buy from towards the bottom end of the market: then at least I know for sure that everything needs fixing and the car is priced accordingly. I have seen plenty of cars from the specialists selling at top dollar which are very little less shagged out than those in the bargain basement. And I wouldn't go for low mileage: lack of use really kills these cars.
Originality and history and lack of rust are the key features. A car from the south of England will be a lot less rotten than one from the north. You want orange indicators, original wheels, steel or alloy, and original wireless, Becker means you're onto a winner. I always think he best guide to whether a car has been looked after is its tyres. If it is on proper tyres—by which I mean Continental or Michelin—then its owner cares for it and has spent money on it. But every 1980s and 1990s Merc needs new rear suspension, new shocks, myriad new rubber bits and usually new brake, fuel and SLS (if fitted) pipes. Our British car culture is pretty superficial: most people skimp on maintenance and, indeed, don't even think or understand the need for maintenance. We care much more about the looks but hardly at all about the mechanics.
The last two old Mercs I have bought, I spent six months getting them right before pressing them into use. This required pretty serious expenditure, several times more than each car cost. But in use they have proved pretty reliable. However, they're old cars and things will go wrong. They will only work for you if you make that part of the pleasure. You have to come to enjoy suffering, diagnosing and fixing—or paying someone else to fix—the inevitable faults and failures. They do not work like new cars: you cannot treat them like commodities or white goods. You have to immerse yourself in the ownership experience. Otherwise they will just piss you off all the time. The good thing about this is that you need at least two: one to use while the other is at the garage.
Edited by r129sl on Monday 1st June 09:59
Totally agree re low mileage, it can make for a 'nicer' car, but equally can cause issues in its self. My low mileage one has had a few niggly issues, though arguably to be expected.
And one word of warning, do not believe anyone who tells you the car doesn't have rust, they're lying - even if only to themselves. Build quality is good, rust proofing isn't!
I have owned three E320 Coupes and I tend to have them serviced and maintained by specialists. I still do a high mileage (over 10k per annum) and I would make the following points if looking for Mercedes of this era:-
One dealer that I have not dealt with but who seems to offer cars cheaper than the other specialists is MTSV in Yorkshire. He does specialise more in 190s but usually has 124 models and the odd SL including a 300SL (in vehicles coming soon) which he is not yet marketing. There is also a rather nice looking 300E but with 4 doors. My understanding is he drives them for a good while before selling so hopefully identifies the faults and puts them right. If I was looking again he would be the dealer I would turn to first and you would probably not need to spend much for the first couple of years.
My current car has 215,000 miles and each time I have serviced the car recently the bill creeps up close to a £1,000. I tend to service the car every 8 months and there are so many things that might need replacing on a 20 year old car you have to just hope they do not all happen at once. Each car has its own issues but rust is one of the biggest possible issues and the wheel arches, and jacking points are the first places to check for an indication of condition. Rust is also common around the rear screen, where the body cladding starts half way down the sides and under the windscreen wash tank.
Mechanically you either need to inspect thoroughly or pay for an inspection. The reason I am probably coming to the end of my time with these cars is the fact that maintenance bills and petrol consumption are both very high. If you can cope with 23 mpg and are not doing too many miles they are great cars but with the mileage I do it is no longer making so much sense. I have always said I want to avoid cars with too much in the way of electronics so I like the fact it is not overly complex but is still a competent car with plenty of grip.
In respect of appreciation or depreciation there will always be a market for cars with under say 130,000 miles but the ones with higher mileages seem to rarely get offered for sale. Mine is in pretty good condition but with 215k miles I doubt I will ever get more than £2,000 and that would be on a good day. Despite that low mileage, as stated previously, is not really a benefit especially if you plan to drive the car regularly but if you want zero depreciation then the mileage always seems key.
One dealer that I have not dealt with but who seems to offer cars cheaper than the other specialists is MTSV in Yorkshire. He does specialise more in 190s but usually has 124 models and the odd SL including a 300SL (in vehicles coming soon) which he is not yet marketing. There is also a rather nice looking 300E but with 4 doors. My understanding is he drives them for a good while before selling so hopefully identifies the faults and puts them right. If I was looking again he would be the dealer I would turn to first and you would probably not need to spend much for the first couple of years.
My current car has 215,000 miles and each time I have serviced the car recently the bill creeps up close to a £1,000. I tend to service the car every 8 months and there are so many things that might need replacing on a 20 year old car you have to just hope they do not all happen at once. Each car has its own issues but rust is one of the biggest possible issues and the wheel arches, and jacking points are the first places to check for an indication of condition. Rust is also common around the rear screen, where the body cladding starts half way down the sides and under the windscreen wash tank.
Mechanically you either need to inspect thoroughly or pay for an inspection. The reason I am probably coming to the end of my time with these cars is the fact that maintenance bills and petrol consumption are both very high. If you can cope with 23 mpg and are not doing too many miles they are great cars but with the mileage I do it is no longer making so much sense. I have always said I want to avoid cars with too much in the way of electronics so I like the fact it is not overly complex but is still a competent car with plenty of grip.
In respect of appreciation or depreciation there will always be a market for cars with under say 130,000 miles but the ones with higher mileages seem to rarely get offered for sale. Mine is in pretty good condition but with 215k miles I doubt I will ever get more than £2,000 and that would be on a good day. Despite that low mileage, as stated previously, is not really a benefit especially if you plan to drive the car regularly but if you want zero depreciation then the mileage always seems key.
Mark Taylor of MTSV is recommended by all who deal with him.
There is definitely a pain barrier that has to be gone through with maintenance. Catching up on backlog maintenance really hurts. One option is to buy a recent Japanese import. The Japanese have a much better culture of vehicle maintenance, reinforced by Mercedes truly being an enthusiast choice and a very stringent vehicle testing régime. I made a list of everything I had to replace on my 124 when I bought it. It makes for painful reading: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
There is definitely a pain barrier that has to be gone through with maintenance. Catching up on backlog maintenance really hurts. One option is to buy a recent Japanese import. The Japanese have a much better culture of vehicle maintenance, reinforced by Mercedes truly being an enthusiast choice and a very stringent vehicle testing régime. I made a list of everything I had to replace on my 124 when I bought it. It makes for painful reading: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
r129sl said:
Mark Taylor of MTSV is recommended by all who deal with him.
There is definitely a pain barrier that has to be gone through with maintenance. Catching up on backlog maintenance really hurts. One option is to buy a recent Japanese import. The Japanese have a much better culture of vehicle maintenance, reinforced by Mercedes truly being an enthusiast choice and a very stringent vehicle testing régime. I made a list of everything I had to replace on my 124 when I bought it. It makes for painful reading: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Ouch, I really wish you hadn't posted that link! Really putting me off the W124 for life.There is definitely a pain barrier that has to be gone through with maintenance. Catching up on backlog maintenance really hurts. One option is to buy a recent Japanese import. The Japanese have a much better culture of vehicle maintenance, reinforced by Mercedes truly being an enthusiast choice and a very stringent vehicle testing régime. I made a list of everything I had to replace on my 124 when I bought it. It makes for painful reading: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
In the 42 months i've owned my current W220 i've spent less than £2,000 on maintenance including changing suspension arms and tyres that didn't really need doing but I was just being picky about. It's ticked over 140,000 miles now.
RUST RUST RUST RUST. Know your enemy and with old mercs its the rot that will catch you out.
They have usual places for rust and then individual cars will have rot in area that other don’t get it. Interestingly the pre face lift 124’s are better than the face lift models. I have a lovely 124 sleeper and it took about 18 months to find the donor (and its not perfect). Interiors last very well – esp MB Tex.
They are proper old barges and I love em.
They have usual places for rust and then individual cars will have rot in area that other don’t get it. Interestingly the pre face lift 124’s are better than the face lift models. I have a lovely 124 sleeper and it took about 18 months to find the donor (and its not perfect). Interiors last very well – esp MB Tex.
They are proper old barges and I love em.
r129sl said:
Mark Taylor of MTSV is recommended by all who deal with him.
There is definitely a pain barrier that has to be gone through with maintenance. Catching up on backlog maintenance really hurts. One option is to buy a recent Japanese import. The Japanese have a much better culture of vehicle maintenance, reinforced by Mercedes truly being an enthusiast choice and a very stringent vehicle testing régime. I made a list of everything I had to replace on my 124 when I bought it. It makes for painful reading: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Gulp!There is definitely a pain barrier that has to be gone through with maintenance. Catching up on backlog maintenance really hurts. One option is to buy a recent Japanese import. The Japanese have a much better culture of vehicle maintenance, reinforced by Mercedes truly being an enthusiast choice and a very stringent vehicle testing régime. I made a list of everything I had to replace on my 124 when I bought it. It makes for painful reading: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Just to give the OP a slightly less scary personal experience, I bought a 97 SL500 in August 2013 for £8k. The car had done 71,000 miles with two owners, the last one from 2001. The service history was a bit patchy but after a bit of research including contacting previous garages who completed work it all stacked up to something I was prepared to take a punt on.
Since then the car has moved on to 86,000 miles being used initially as a summer car/ London smoke about mobil and subsequently serving four months as a a daily insured for business use. In that time it's had both an A and B service, various consumables (battery, V belt tensioner, trunion bushes, gearbox fluid changed etc), tyres discs and pads all round along with a few odds and sods- total expenditure circa £3k in twenty months. This sounds expensive however most of it is in areas that will not need further expenditure for some time to come- they are nearly all service items. Or, framed differently it's 6 months lease payments on a mid level German exec. I've no doubt a more seasoned owner would be able to identify areas for further improvement (I'd like to replace the wheels and the front wings are starting to bubble at the leading lower edge)but I would trust it for any journey, anytime, any distance.
In that time a 981 Cayman has been and gone but the Merc has quietly got on with being a great car, offering a broad range of capabilities, character, real quality and a not inconsiderable amount of plaudits. I love it- do it OP!
Edited- just had a quick look in the classifieds and there aren't many sensibly priced 500's that appeal- one silver one in Wales but that was about it- far less than when I last looked.
Edited by truck71 on Wednesday 3rd June 14:41
r129sl said:
The salient points to remember about my car are:
(1) it cost £1,072,
(2) it had done 230,000miles,
(3) I use it for 25-30,000 hard miles every year,
(4) I got carried away making it good,
(5) Even so, t's unlikely I could have done 78,500miles over three years any cheaper.
Indeed, and you end up with a very stylish and enjoyable way to travel about- IMO more so than aforementioned modern alternatives. I didn't mean to sound critical of the significant commitment made.(1) it cost £1,072,
(2) it had done 230,000miles,
(3) I use it for 25-30,000 hard miles every year,
(4) I got carried away making it good,
(5) Even so, t's unlikely I could have done 78,500miles over three years any cheaper.
I do believe however there is a window of ownership proposition that can cover most peoples requirements and budgets. The intrinsic quality of Mercs from this era means they make great bangers and get used as such, buying one of these will always be full of risk. However there are various entry points between that and a low miler garage queen. Maintenance need not be prohibitive, sensible home mechanic preventative measures can deliver reliable daily transport whilst enjoying the attributes these cars bring. You might have to accept cosmetic blemishes and tolerate some gremlins but acknowledge this as part of the budget approach.
I'd love to throw the kitchen sink at mine but it would go against the joy of having a nice old motor that I don't have to be anxious about owning. I would also struggle to justify it to myself right now, that's not to say I won't change my mind in the future. I certainly don't see it disappearing any time soon.
Gassing Station | Mercedes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff