These are big numbers
Discussion
Stuck in a jam this morning listening to the radio news and reading Schon Mit Katalysator in the back window of the Audi in front I realised I had no idea how many people were killed in WW2. Particularly I was wondering about German losses. A quick trawl of the net came up with,
18,000,000 USSR
5,800,000 Poland
4,200,000 Germany
2,000,000 Japan
563,000 France
357,000 UK
298,000 USA
Staggering numbers. The French managed to keep well out of trouble (despite being occupied and fought over) with the Brits and Yanks losing about a "tsunami" each. The Germans, Poles and Russians did real damage to each other. Looks like the Yanks managed a kill rate of 10:1 in Japan (wonder what it is in Iraq).
Aggregate deaths are said to be around 37 million including 20 million civilians. That looks massive compared with some of the smaller figures that receive so much attention.
18,000,000 USSR
5,800,000 Poland
4,200,000 Germany
2,000,000 Japan
563,000 France
357,000 UK
298,000 USA
Staggering numbers. The French managed to keep well out of trouble (despite being occupied and fought over) with the Brits and Yanks losing about a "tsunami" each. The Germans, Poles and Russians did real damage to each other. Looks like the Yanks managed a kill rate of 10:1 in Japan (wonder what it is in Iraq).
Aggregate deaths are said to be around 37 million including 20 million civilians. That looks massive compared with some of the smaller figures that receive so much attention.
Hmmm... "lest we forget"....
Shocking numbers.
I was just reading about Auschwitz... and I was shocked at my lack of knowledge of the true barbarity of the goings on there. Of course I knew that "terrible stuff" went on but the facts are just disgusting. It was humbling stuff indeed.
Shocking numbers.
I was just reading about Auschwitz... and I was shocked at my lack of knowledge of the true barbarity of the goings on there. Of course I knew that "terrible stuff" went on but the facts are just disgusting. It was humbling stuff indeed.
chim_knee said:
Hmmm... "lest we forget"....
Shocking numbers.
I was just reading about Auschwitz... and I was shocked at my lack of knowledge of the true barbarity of the goings on there. Of course I knew that "terrible stuff" went on but the facts are just disgusting. It was humbling stuff indeed.
Hearing survivors' tales is really depressing.
So how many minutes do these 6 million Jews get? (150,000 people got 3 minutes...)
An interesting feature of World War 2 is that the Allied fighters were, by and large, fairly ignorant of what was happening in the labour/concentration/death camps. When the truth came out at the end of the war, it made these soldiers realise that they REALLY had been fighting against something monstrously evil.
So, here's an interesting question (to me at least).
If a war were to break out somewhat similarly today (yes, I know the socio-politco changes, etc, etc - HYPOTHETICAL question), would YOU join up to fight?
What if some small corner of Iraq has a 'concentration camp' that hasn't been found, full of WOMD/detainees? Would everyone then say that the war was justified??
I'd like to think I would go, but it's so easy to say now that we 'know' what's going on, and there is 'The Army' to look after us...
Gary
>> Edited by gary_tholl on Thursday 27th January 18:01
If a war were to break out somewhat similarly today (yes, I know the socio-politco changes, etc, etc - HYPOTHETICAL question), would YOU join up to fight?
What if some small corner of Iraq has a 'concentration camp' that hasn't been found, full of WOMD/detainees? Would everyone then say that the war was justified??
I'd like to think I would go, but it's so easy to say now that we 'know' what's going on, and there is 'The Army' to look after us...
Gary
>> Edited by gary_tholl on Thursday 27th January 18:01
I think one of the big differences between now and 1939 is that most adults today have very little trust in or respect for the government. And, to put it bluntly, the current government got it so wrong over Iraq that it will be years if trust is restored (if ever).
You've also got to remember the virtually no one who signed up in 1939 had even the slightest inkling what Hitler and the Nazis were going to get up to later on in the war. In fact, the only person in the country who seemed to recognise the sheer evilness of the regime was Winston Churchill.
You've also got to remember the virtually no one who signed up in 1939 had even the slightest inkling what Hitler and the Nazis were going to get up to later on in the war. In fact, the only person in the country who seemed to recognise the sheer evilness of the regime was Winston Churchill.
As portrayed brilliantly in the film 'The Gathering Storm'...gary_tholl said:
So, here's an interesting question (to me at least).
If a war were to break out somewhat similarly today (yes, I know the socio-politco changes, etc, etc - HYPOTHETICAL question), would YOU join up to fight?
What if some small corner of Iraq has a 'concentration camp' that hasn't been found, full of WOMD/detainees? Would everyone then say that the war was justified??
I'd like to think I would go, but it's so easy to say now that we 'know' what's going on, and there is 'The Army' to look after us...
Gary
>> Edited by gary_tholl on Thursday 27th January 18:01
you need to check out some of the documentaries on satelite/ read some real investigative journalism rather than the tabloid, marketing driven drivel that we are fed as news, Saddams regime gassed, clubbed,shot and buried whole villages of people, they erased tribes of nomads. The male victims were often forced to watch their women and children being raped and tortured prior to thier own termination.
A mate of mine is working over there, he says that there are huge excavations of mass graves, some are rekoned to have tens of thousands of unrecorded, un identified bodies in them.
Genocide isn't a new concept, it has been performed by various races/tribes against others and is still going on, now, somewhere in the world.
I detest what this govt has done to our country, however, I agree that taking out Saddam's regime was the right move, if the majority of Nato countries hadn't been dependant on cheap Iraqi oil prior to the conflict, I'm sure that Nato would have taken the lead earlier.
In answer to your question, yes i would join up, if my services were required by my country. I'm,however, grateful that this isn't the situation at present.
ST
How about these Vietnam War casualty figures:
On the American "side" the official number is 58,148 Americans killed plus 223,748 South Vietnamese soldiers as well.
A total of approximately 300,000 so far...
The true civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war.
So approximately 5.1 million total Vietnamese casualites.
And a grand total of approximately 5.4 million.
On the American "side" the official number is 58,148 Americans killed plus 223,748 South Vietnamese soldiers as well.
A total of approximately 300,000 so far...
The true civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war.
So approximately 5.1 million total Vietnamese casualites.
And a grand total of approximately 5.4 million.
gaston said:
Staggering numbers. The French managed to keep well out of trouble (despite being occupied and fought over) .
Somewhat unfair, as the French suffered massive losses in WW1 with 1.3+ million dead compared with 0.9million for the British empire. They also suffered nearly twice as many casualties - 6m compared with 3m. Might go someway to explaining why their forces couldn't cope, as i don't think there was much population growth between the wars in france save for some immigration.
I'm not an expert but that's what i've always been led to believe anyway.
Cheers,
Rob.
>> Edited by Rob_F on Saturday 14th May 13:44
chim_knee said:
I was just reading about Auschwitz... and I was shocked at my lack of knowledge of the true barbarity of the goings on there. Of course I knew that "terrible stuff" went on but the facts are just disgusting. It was humbling stuff indeed.
If you're interested in finding out more the best book to read is 'The Holocaust' by Martin Gilbert. It's 1000 pages long, I've read it twice now. Grim stuff.
gaston said:
18,000,000 USSR
5,800,000 Poland
4,200,000 Germany
2,000,000 Japan
563,000 France
357,000 UK
298,000 USA
These figures also put paid to the "if it wasn't for us you'd be speaking German" comments that occasionally get bandied about from the other side of the pond. I know they gave more help in addition to lives but bizarrely the Soviets did more for European freedom than anyone.
Mind boggling figures however you look at them.
Re the "would you sign up" question. I'd like to think I would, but I'm sure as hell glad I don't have to.
gaston said:
Staggering numbers. The French managed to keep well out of trouble (despite being occupied and fought over) with the Brits and Yanks losing about a "tsunami" each. The Germans, Poles and Russians did real damage to each other. Looks like the Yanks managed a kill rate of 10:1 in Japan (wonder what it is in Iraq).
It’s about the same but you have to bare in mind that included in those 10 there are quite possible 2 or 3 British or Americans. Yes, they really are that hopeless.
Balmoral Green said:
Interesting figure I heard the other day, it sounded 'made up' but the basic math was right.
The amount of money that the USA has spent on the Iraq war so far?
$149 dollars for every single minute...
...since Jesus was born.
Probably not far off the mark. They allocated over $18 billion for rebuilding Iraq’s infrastructure, however, an increasing amount of this is having to be diverted to security.
George W Bush said:
"The recession started upon my arrival. It could have been - some say February, some say March, some speculate maybe earlier it started - but nevertheless, it happened as we showed up here. The attacks on our country affected our economy. Corporate scandals affected the confidence of people and therefore affected the economy. My decision on Iraq, this kind of march to war, affected the economy."
George W. Bush, on Meet the Press, Feb. 8, 2004
The leader of the free world!
He also said….
George W Bush said:
"I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein."
George W. Bush, May 25, 2004
Despair!!
Rob_F said:
Somewhat unfair, as the French suffered massive losses in WW1 with 1.3+ million dead compared with 0.9million for the British empire. They also suffered >> Edited by Rob_F on Saturday 14th May 13:44
A good point,the greatest burden in fighting the Germans fell to the French in the 1st world war and the Russians in the second.
It is also worth bearing in mind when during the D-Day celebaratins people say how that won the war, that Russian losses from mid 1944 to the end of the war in just one of the large battles on the Eastern Front matched TOTAL allied losses over the same period.
Balmoral Green said:
Interesting figure I heard the other day, it sounded 'made up' but the basic math was right.
The amount of money that the USA has spent on the Iraq war so far?
$149 dollars for every single minute...
...since Jesus was born.
Total cost of war so far financially to the US is $ 170 billion dollars rising by some 160 Million dollars a day. Source Here
I just watched a clip where they called in an F15 to drop a 500 Lb Laser Guided Bomb on a target...
The target ? 1 insurgent sniper. Tax dollars at work.
Balmoral Green said:
Interesting figure I heard the other day, it sounded 'made up' but the basic math was right.
The amount of money that the USA has spent on the Iraq war so far?
$149 dollars for every single minute...
...since Jesus was born.
Only if (a) you believe in Jesus and (b) that they got his birthdate right - remember how much argument there was over the Year 2000...
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