Iraqi Elections - a Triumph for Democracy?
Discussion
Given all the naysayers and criticism that has been made of the Western Democracies attempts to introduce democarcy in the Middle East and Iraq, I would have to say that the incredible response from the brave Iraqi people to today's voting has been amazing.
The turnout is unbelievably high, and the incredibly positive and moving statements from ordinary Iraqi's about how they had dreamed of this day for decades, and how delighted they are to be finally free of Saddam, is truly great news.
So who now thinks that we should have left well alone? Is democracy something the Middle East and Iraq doesn't want?
The turnout is unbelievably high, and the incredibly positive and moving statements from ordinary Iraqi's about how they had dreamed of this day for decades, and how delighted they are to be finally free of Saddam, is truly great news.
So who now thinks that we should have left well alone? Is democracy something the Middle East and Iraq doesn't want?
Call me an old fashioned capitalist, but democracy is good and its good for any country. No matter if rich, poor or having major problems..... it offer a real branch to the people who can make a difference to how they are run / governed. Dont get me wrong, no one system is perfect, but there is less corruption and nepotism in a democracy (well that we get to know about at least 
).
So, will Iraq prosper under democracy? Most probably because it will be better than what they had for the previous 50 years. It can only get better for the average man on the street.
One clear example of this is the split between the Sunni and everyone else. Because the Sunni were "blessed" by Saddam they had everything. Now its a bit more fair, the other minorities and majorities are voting. So guess what, the Sunni dont get as much and loose all of the power they once had.... and guess what? They are boycotting the election? Shallow and selfish, but to be expected I suppose.
Fingers crossed that it works out. There is still plenty of time for it to go all pear shaped yet.....
). So, will Iraq prosper under democracy? Most probably because it will be better than what they had for the previous 50 years. It can only get better for the average man on the street.
One clear example of this is the split between the Sunni and everyone else. Because the Sunni were "blessed" by Saddam they had everything. Now its a bit more fair, the other minorities and majorities are voting. So guess what, the Sunni dont get as much and loose all of the power they once had.... and guess what? They are boycotting the election? Shallow and selfish, but to be expected I suppose.
Fingers crossed that it works out. There is still plenty of time for it to go all pear shaped yet.....
I laid into some communists over this issue on Friday. They were all saying how democracy was imperialist and that Afghan women were perfectly happy to be repressed by the Taliban and beaten by their husbands, as were the Iraqis in putting up with Saddam Hussein.
I put this question to them: Was the abolition of slavery an example of imperialism? Was it cultural imperialism? Because for centuries the Europeans didn't see anything wrong with going over to Africa, brutalising and dehumanising the population and using them to death on their plantations. It was considered the norm in these cultures to have slaves, and it took a few people, some of them American, who were bold and brave enough to stand up and challenge the British practises. After pressure from both home and foreign anti-slavery activists, the barbaric trade stopped.
What was going on in Afghanistan and Iraq prior to democracy was not an example of long-standing culture, but unfortunate political oppression. The reason why the people never said they wanted democracy is because they were never given a say and they didn't know what it was to be free - if you campaigned for democracy, they'd more than likely kill you, as the British did the slaves who stood up and protested for their freedom.
I say let them enjoy and develop their own democracy. I'm proud of the fact that, despite the fact that 36 people were murdered by terrorists today, none of the polling stations shut.
And if that's imperialism, then I'm imperial and proud of it.
I put this question to them: Was the abolition of slavery an example of imperialism? Was it cultural imperialism? Because for centuries the Europeans didn't see anything wrong with going over to Africa, brutalising and dehumanising the population and using them to death on their plantations. It was considered the norm in these cultures to have slaves, and it took a few people, some of them American, who were bold and brave enough to stand up and challenge the British practises. After pressure from both home and foreign anti-slavery activists, the barbaric trade stopped.
What was going on in Afghanistan and Iraq prior to democracy was not an example of long-standing culture, but unfortunate political oppression. The reason why the people never said they wanted democracy is because they were never given a say and they didn't know what it was to be free - if you campaigned for democracy, they'd more than likely kill you, as the British did the slaves who stood up and protested for their freedom.
I say let them enjoy and develop their own democracy. I'm proud of the fact that, despite the fact that 36 people were murdered by terrorists today, none of the polling stations shut.
And if that's imperialism, then I'm imperial and proud of it.
The turnout is certainly great news.
There is still much to be done, and the new Government will have a lot on its hands, tying together all these factions.
However, at least Iraqis have voiced that they do want Democracy.
Reminds me of the looong thread about whether Iraqis can ever understand or have one. A lot of folks said that they couldn't grasp the notion, nor did they want it.
I guess the Iraqis themselves are best left to voice their preferences.
In fact, I wonder, if in our respective nations (US, UK) if there were explicit threats of mass bombings and rivers of voters blood in the streets, how many of us would venture out to cast a vote?
Good on the Iraqi people. No US/UK chest puffing today...this one is just good on those people over there, who showed some sand today.
There is still much to be done, and the new Government will have a lot on its hands, tying together all these factions.
However, at least Iraqis have voiced that they do want Democracy.
Reminds me of the looong thread about whether Iraqis can ever understand or have one. A lot of folks said that they couldn't grasp the notion, nor did they want it.
I guess the Iraqis themselves are best left to voice their preferences.
In fact, I wonder, if in our respective nations (US, UK) if there were explicit threats of mass bombings and rivers of voters blood in the streets, how many of us would venture out to cast a vote?
Good on the Iraqi people. No US/UK chest puffing today...this one is just good on those people over there, who showed some sand today.
You sir dont understand the arab world at all!
And you dont understand the US of A!
They will indefinitely stay there - thats not a democracy, thats a puppet government... and the extremists and so called insurgents (yeah right, just people who want the yanks out of there!) activities will get more and more organised...
Iraq was the wrong place to attempt such 'bullshit' - its all a big cover to keep the easily-fooled happy in thinking its a democracy - when there are even more sinister going ons... the US is hungry... and it was never for democracy!
I hope the insurgents get stronger, and kick the invaders out of their country! I'm sure they can sort their own problems out... hell sake, it was the yanks that helped Saddam into power in the first place! If they just stop sticking their fingers into other nations businesses then maybe just, just maybe the world could get on peacefully!
Meddling bafooons, everywhere they go, they live a trail of shite...
Read the papers the other day, Bush said that they will not go for North Korea because they already have a number of nukes and that is their deterant, well... how about giving all the arab lands a few nukes too, just like Pakistan and India... then maybe the yanks will be deterred from them too...
Thats EXACTLY what they dont want, because as soon as these arab lands get hold of WMD, then they will be in a position to say 'feck u' to any foreign country which tries to stick its fingers into their nations running.
It was always about oil, always will be... right now, its a race against time for the Iranians, Syrians and Jordanians to get nuke capabilities - because they know, without it, they're shagged already!
And if they were stupid enough to use the technology, or stupid enough to leak it out into the so called terror world, then dont you think countries like India and Pakistan would have also done the same? Or even use them?
Arabs aint stupid, they want nuke capability, because they know, its the only way to keep the western world away from them...
And I believe that if one mans gonna fight with a knife, then its only fair play to let the other man have a knife too, it doesnt matter that mine is bigger than his, at least he has a knife! - [Ash 2005AD]
And you dont understand the US of A!
They will indefinitely stay there - thats not a democracy, thats a puppet government... and the extremists and so called insurgents (yeah right, just people who want the yanks out of there!) activities will get more and more organised...
Iraq was the wrong place to attempt such 'bullshit' - its all a big cover to keep the easily-fooled happy in thinking its a democracy - when there are even more sinister going ons... the US is hungry... and it was never for democracy!
I hope the insurgents get stronger, and kick the invaders out of their country! I'm sure they can sort their own problems out... hell sake, it was the yanks that helped Saddam into power in the first place! If they just stop sticking their fingers into other nations businesses then maybe just, just maybe the world could get on peacefully!
Meddling bafooons, everywhere they go, they live a trail of shite...
Read the papers the other day, Bush said that they will not go for North Korea because they already have a number of nukes and that is their deterant, well... how about giving all the arab lands a few nukes too, just like Pakistan and India... then maybe the yanks will be deterred from them too...
Thats EXACTLY what they dont want, because as soon as these arab lands get hold of WMD, then they will be in a position to say 'feck u' to any foreign country which tries to stick its fingers into their nations running.
It was always about oil, always will be... right now, its a race against time for the Iranians, Syrians and Jordanians to get nuke capabilities - because they know, without it, they're shagged already!
And if they were stupid enough to use the technology, or stupid enough to leak it out into the so called terror world, then dont you think countries like India and Pakistan would have also done the same? Or even use them?
Arabs aint stupid, they want nuke capability, because they know, its the only way to keep the western world away from them...
And I believe that if one mans gonna fight with a knife, then its only fair play to let the other man have a knife too, it doesnt matter that mine is bigger than his, at least he has a knife! - [Ash 2005AD]
SXS, you watch too many X-files reruns. Sorry, but there is not a conspiracy around every corner.
Your post ignores what happened today in Iraq, and what Iraqis are saying.
And not everyone who disagrees with you automatically have no understanding of the issue. I do understand the Arab world. For years, as an Arabic linguist, it was my job to understand the Arab world.
But it doesn't take an understanding of the culture to interpret a 76 percent voter turnout despite the danger of being blown up as a big YES PLEASE statement about democracy.
Your post ignores what happened today in Iraq, and what Iraqis are saying.
And not everyone who disagrees with you automatically have no understanding of the issue. I do understand the Arab world. For years, as an Arabic linguist, it was my job to understand the Arab world.
But it doesn't take an understanding of the culture to interpret a 76 percent voter turnout despite the danger of being blown up as a big YES PLEASE statement about democracy.
madmike said:
SXS, you watch too many X-files reruns. Sorry, but there is not a conspiracy around every corner.
Your post ignores what happened today in Iraq, and what Iraqis are saying.
And not everyone who disagrees with you automatically have no understanding of the issue. I do understand the Arab world. For years, as an Arabic linguist, it was my job to understand the Arab world.
But it doesn't take an understanding of the culture to interpret a 76 percent voter turnout despite the danger of being blown up as a big YES PLEASE statement about democracy.
I hear what you're saying - but those same people are led to believe that this thing from the west called 'democracy' is going to sort all their problems out... of course they're going to jump onto the ship when they get led to believe such things... little do they know that their independance now lies in the hands of those who helped screw their country up in the first place...
Saddam, this guy was stupid, before he went into Kuwait, he called the american whatever her name was, the one responsible for international affairs or something, he asked if they would mind if he went into Kuwait - they 'his western allies' said nothing... he saw this as a green light... little did he know... that he walked straight into a trap!
Whilst the Iranians and Iraqis were fighting (again another situation created by the western world!) the kuwaitees decided to expand their oil mining borders... hell... if india did that to pakistan or vice versa, of course there would be a war on their hands!
I'm not alone in this understanding... but let see whats in store for the arab world ahead!...
madmike said:
For years, as an Arabic linguist, it was my job to understand the Arab world.
Ok, you speak the language...
Sorry, but millions of others do too...
And we could probably hit arab forums and see what their views are...
I dont watch too many X-Files... I take note of history... because there is always a background...
Even France and Germany and Russia and China could see this one coming... whence whilst the US is going ahead with their own agenda, there are other more serious partnerships taking place...
Its not a conspiracy - its the survival of the fittest... and the world is not becoming a safer place!
[quote=SXS ]
I hear what you're saying - but those same people are led to believe that this thing from the west called 'democracy' is going to sort all their problems out... of course they're going to jump onto the ship when they get led to believe such things... little do they know that their independance now lies in the hands of those who helped screw their country up in the first place...[/quote]
So, what you're saying is, Iraqis are too stupid to understand what democracy is? I'd like to give them more credit than that.
Nor is it a puppet government, as you suggest. How can it be, if the Iraqis themselves voted the individuals in?
In fact, the Iraqi people will get exactly what they asked for today. They voted for the candidates.
I hear what you're saying - but those same people are led to believe that this thing from the west called 'democracy' is going to sort all their problems out... of course they're going to jump onto the ship when they get led to believe such things... little do they know that their independance now lies in the hands of those who helped screw their country up in the first place...[/quote]
So, what you're saying is, Iraqis are too stupid to understand what democracy is? I'd like to give them more credit than that.
Nor is it a puppet government, as you suggest. How can it be, if the Iraqis themselves voted the individuals in?
In fact, the Iraqi people will get exactly what they asked for today. They voted for the candidates.
madmike said:
So, what you're saying is, Iraqis are too stupid to understand what democracy is? I'd like to give them more credit than that.
Nor is it a puppet government, as you suggest. How can it be, if the Iraqis themselves voted the individuals in?
In fact, the Iraqi people will get exactly what they asked for today. They voted for the candidates.
Yup - but there is a lot of background work that went into this... the US will not be happy with another ARAB supremist in charge...
There is a big line between installing a democracy and running the country... like I said, we'll have to wait and see...
Come one, even here we got Tony into power... and the bugger just keeps increasing taxes, what happened to all his promises at the election?
People will vote for whatever 'convinces' them... but how do you believe someone if they have never been in power before... or even understand the countries position in the arab world... puppet government... doesnt mean that they are literally puppets... theres more to it than that... but anyway, like I said, lets see what happens...
France, Germany and Russia didn't see it coming. Sorry, but their NO votes had nothing to do with the welfare of the Iraqi people. They had long term oil agreements with Saddam, and tons of cash tied to Iraq as it stood.
If you are going to point your finger at the US and say our intentions are not genuine, don't point to France and say theirs are. That's actually funny.
BTW, I don't point to my ability to speak Arabic as a qualification...I only do so when people rush to point out that I must have no clue about such things. In fact I do.
I don't I've ever questioned the credentials of another PHer, because I don't believe you have to have credentials to have an opinion. However, I have had my credentials questioned countless times here, so I point out that I indeed do have them.
>> Edited by madmike on Sunday 30th January 15:10
>> Edited by madmike on Sunday 30th January 15:11
If you are going to point your finger at the US and say our intentions are not genuine, don't point to France and say theirs are. That's actually funny.
BTW, I don't point to my ability to speak Arabic as a qualification...I only do so when people rush to point out that I must have no clue about such things. In fact I do.
I don't I've ever questioned the credentials of another PHer, because I don't believe you have to have credentials to have an opinion. However, I have had my credentials questioned countless times here, so I point out that I indeed do have them.
>> Edited by madmike on Sunday 30th January 15:10
>> Edited by madmike on Sunday 30th January 15:11
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think you need to be a bit more cautious when talking about turnout. For a start, most of the voters were in the Kurdish and Shia areas, which is not a surprise, but the turnout was much lower in the Sunni areas.
Secondly, wait til the results have actually come out, as they might be quite what you want. Pre-election polling showed that the religious parties were far far more popular than any of the other parties, so another theocracy might be on the cards.
Thirdly, let's put the champagne on ice for a few years alex, as we have seen in Afganistan, it's hardly made that much difference to the majority of the country there, given that the govts rule doesnt extend out of Kabul.
peterpeter said:
I think you need to be a bit more cautious when talking about turnout. For a start, most of the voters were in the Kurdish and Shia areas, which is not a surprise, but the turnout was much lower in the Sunni areas.
Secondly, wait til the results have actually come out, as they might be quite what you want. Pre-election polling showed that the religious parties were far far more popular than any of the other parties, so another theocracy might be on the cards.
Thirdly, let's put the champagne on ice for a few years alex, as we have seen in Afganistan, it's hardly made that much difference to the majority of the country there, given that the govts rule doesnt extend out of Kabul.
All true peterpeter. The point being, if Iraqis DO want a religious government, then they should have it. If they vote for it, then so be it. I'm fine with that, as long as it remains up for vote.
Under Saddam they did not have that. Iraq was largely secular. Now the people can choose to their liking.
Hey bud, we have different opinions, I never questioned your background did I?
In this Iraq conflict, you believe things for face value.
I dont.
You have your own understanding based on your knowledge and perception which leads to your opinion.
And I have my own based on my knowledge and perception...
Simple really...
If I am wrong, then great! Iraqis get a deal and half! But if I'm right, then they're fecked! And who's next?
In this Iraq conflict, you believe things for face value.
I dont.
You have your own understanding based on your knowledge and perception which leads to your opinion.
And I have my own based on my knowledge and perception...
Simple really...
If I am wrong, then great! Iraqis get a deal and half! But if I'm right, then they're fecked! And who's next?
SXS, sorry, but you're beginning to sound like one of the alarmist socialist types in my seminars. The truth about all of them is that they are in fact running on a huge middle-class-British guilt complex. They see potential for conspiracy everywhere, and because of their motivation, they put it there whether it's justified or not.
Now, I'm not saying that you're as bad as them, but I don't really believe that the sole aim of this war was for oil, I mean, the effects of the war put the oil prices up and jeopardised it's availability FFS!
And as for puppet governments - they're not selected in elections unless the election was rigged, and I really doubt they'd be able to rig an election on that scale without everyone noticing (look what happened in Ukraine, and the eventual outcome of the re-election was not in the interests of the US or Russia).
Now, I'm not saying that you're as bad as them, but I don't really believe that the sole aim of this war was for oil, I mean, the effects of the war put the oil prices up and jeopardised it's availability FFS!
And as for puppet governments - they're not selected in elections unless the election was rigged, and I really doubt they'd be able to rig an election on that scale without everyone noticing (look what happened in Ukraine, and the eventual outcome of the re-election was not in the interests of the US or Russia).
v8thunder said:
SXS, sorry, but you're beginning to sound like one of the alarmist socialist types in my seminars.
Thanks...
I see things from different angles... I try to be positive... but I see things in a more defined logical pattern... rather than take things from face value... I try to see the primer... I'm not interested in the laquer or even the snazzy paint job... Thats my angle... I'm no where near an alarmist socialist... if you knew me, you would definitely take that statement back..
It really gets on my nerves to see people so easily 'levelled' by the glossed finish of a much more sinister underpinning... but again thats my view... I have much closer links to the arab world than you would think, but my credentials are not in question here, my opinion is... but hey, what do I know about the crap the arab world has been going through for decades because of external pressure and nearly always been related to oil...
I'm just a socialist type right?...
Why is the middle-east such a BIG thing over here in the west - BECAUSE WE NEED THEIR OIL! I for one will be very happy for alternative fuel... but our government cant afford to let that one happen, how can they tax water(hydrogen extraction) or compressed air powered cars??? Why cant we just leave the middle east alone!!! Thousands dying for what??????? democracy???? would you sacrifice your family for democracy? I dont think so.... its all crap!
And we got pulled into this one by Uncle Sam... which even after over a million people protested in London, our government still didnt hear that we the people were not interested in sending our soldiers to foreign land to fight another mans 'artifical war'. I've lost 4 very good friends because of this Iraq shite... because they went there under Tony's order to fight his butt-licking ass of a war...
And if you think France and Germany stayed out of this because they had oil deals running with Saddam... then so what??? at least it wasnt killing innocent people! US has a complex, and that complex is screwing up many countries in the world... but its not the people who are in the wrong, its their feckin military might and stupid monkey-ass brained leaders!
Who again, because of democracy, got voted in! If such idiots can get into power in the US, what kind of bafoons will get into power in a so called democratic Iraq?
The turn out does not matter, not even who will be elected. It is what will happen between the shiites and sunnites that matters. Because of the US mismanagement the place has been thrown back in the Middle Age with all that nonesense religious stuff prevailing, to which only retards like bush can happily react.
Any country with a government practicing a religion-based agenda cannot be considered as a Democracy, especially when it is narrowly shouldered by a foreign state that has been looking for an increasingly important strategic position in the Middle East. The US have troops both in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Iran lies between those two countries ... The Iraqis certainly remain a long way from what should be Democracy, and that is self-determination applied with little religious subjectivity.
The bush milicia is trying to model the world to what suits them best instead of taking people as they come, and for this alone I wish them utter failure.
>> Edited by Thom on Sunday 30th January 16:17
Any country with a government practicing a religion-based agenda cannot be considered as a Democracy, especially when it is narrowly shouldered by a foreign state that has been looking for an increasingly important strategic position in the Middle East. The US have troops both in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Iran lies between those two countries ... The Iraqis certainly remain a long way from what should be Democracy, and that is self-determination applied with little religious subjectivity.
The bush milicia is trying to model the world to what suits them best instead of taking people as they come, and for this alone I wish them utter failure.
>> Edited by Thom on Sunday 30th January 16:17
rich1231 said:
Im so clever Im so clever your not blah blah blah
And that was a very clever post
... blah blah blah Say something a little more productive in this debate you silly monkey
If I was CLEVER then I wouldnt bother getting into discussions with not so clevers... what a stupid assumption of my right to opinion... duhhh
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