Why formation when going from A to B?
Why formation when going from A to B?
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aceparts

Original Poster:

3,724 posts

270 months

Saturday 18th July 2015
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Living near an airfield something occurred to me today. I often see plans of all types flying over in formation. Isn't it the air equivalent to tail gating when you're the only two people on the motorway?

Surely the risks increase flying relatively close together? What's the idea?

speedtwelve

3,546 posts

302 months

Saturday 18th July 2015
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As someone who does it on occasion, because it looks cool. smile

ecsrobin

18,643 posts

194 months

Saturday 18th July 2015
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I'm assuming military?

Steve_D

13,801 posts

287 months

Saturday 18th July 2015
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I discussed this with Red 1.
In their case it means only Red 1 has to do the navigating plus they do many fly-by's on route so it is easier to just stay formated.
I asked what they did when visibility was not so good...they fly closer together.

Steve

Eric Mc

125,606 posts

294 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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It's also fun.

simonrockman

7,114 posts

284 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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Birds fly in formation and they are not doing it to impress anyone.

muckymotor

2,484 posts

250 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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Perhaps so you know where the others are without having to look around for them perhaps?

Oh, and it looks cool.

Eric Mc

125,606 posts

294 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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simonrockman said:
Birds fly in formation and they are not doing it to impress anyone.
How do you know?

0000

13,816 posts

220 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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I'm sure I heard the guy on the tannoy at RIAT yesterday suggest it helped with (fuel?) efficiency and airframe stresses yesterday. Can't think they're primary reasons, probably more to do with being a skill they need to have so if they're going A to B they may as well just go together.

Simpo Two

92,670 posts

294 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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Birds fly in Vs for lower air resistance.

ecsrobin

18,643 posts

194 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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A few reasons, so they all have visual on each other, only the lead aircraft needs to speak to ATC, if required only 1 flight plan needs to be submitted, it looks cool.

Eric Mc

125,606 posts

294 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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Simpo Two said:
Birds fly in Vs for lower air resistance.
They also ride wing tip vortex of the bird in front - which means they don't have to flap so hard.

Maikeeh

51 posts

188 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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Flying in a 'V' formation is beneficial for the aircraft flying behind the leader because of the reduction in induced drag it affords. The leader's rotating wing tip vortices result in downwash on the leader's wing and upwash on the wings of those following. Upwash has the effect of rotating the lift vector forwards (i.e. in to the airflow), therefore reducing the component of drag (which is parallel to, and in the direction of, the airflow). The same principle applies to aircraft further out in the formation; with a bit of effort it's possible to determine the drag reduction based on position.

Eric Mc

125,606 posts

294 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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Something every duck knows.

They're not as stupid as they look.

anonymous-user

83 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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The idea that only one aircraft in a formation will be navigating is a little rose tinted.
One navigates.
Two checks.
Three double checks.
Etc.

eharding

14,648 posts

313 months

Sunday 19th July 2015
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Crossflow Kid said:
The idea that only one aircraft in a formation will be navigating is a little rose tinted.
One navigates.
Two checks.
Three double checks.
Etc.
Tactical formation yes, *close* formation no. When you're a few feet off the other chap's wingtip, the only distraction from station keeping I find is the occasional fleeting glance at the engine gauges, certainly no scope for dicking about with maps, maybe a glance at the GPS if it falls within the line of sight of the main formation reference.

SOP we use is that one of the first things the leader tells a formation member when breaking out is where they are.

anonymous-user

83 months

Monday 20th July 2015
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eharding said:
Crossflow Kid said:
The idea that only one aircraft in a formation will be navigating is a little rose tinted.
One navigates.
Two checks.
Three double checks.
Etc.
Tactical formation yes, *close* formation no. When you're a few feet off the other chap's wingtip, the only distraction from station keeping I find is the occasional fleeting glance at the engine gauges, certainly no scope for dicking about with maps, maybe a glance at the GPS if it falls within the line of sight of the main formation reference.

SOP we use is that one of the first things the leader tells a formation member when breaking out is where they are.
Fair point. It's just that coming from an SH background I assumed the only kind of formation was the tactical variety ;-)

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 20th July 07:31

2fast748

1,271 posts

224 months

Monday 20th July 2015
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simonrockman said:
Birds fly in formation and they are not doing it to impress anyone.
Sorry, the birds disagree:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/science-technol...

Back on topic: I saw The Red Arrows the other week on a transit over the Lake District and they appeared to be in 2 formations (couldn't really see properly because of the trees but they did go over in 2 packs of noise!

GGibbo

173 posts

205 months

Tuesday 21st July 2015
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From an FJ point of view close formation is primarily a way of getting around as efficiently as possible. Less traffic for atc, less airspace used up and no need to waste time/fuel rejoining to do whatever you're going to do. Obviously whether you are actually in close formation is dictated by weather.

I can't believe the fuel efficiency/airframe stresses argument. Although there may be a theoretical increase in lift due to wing tip vortices(although equally likely to result in a decrease) the demanding nature of flying as a wingman in close means that wingmen will almost always use more fuel than the leader.

Obviosuly tactical situations can dictate flying any number of variations of formation(including close form).