Emergency stops & Rear Enders!
Discussion
Hi all,
Just wanted someone help me understand if I am at fault or not...
Background... another car did an emergency stop on an empty roundabout (for no plausable reason!) and I touched the rear of his car with mine (no damage to either car). Total speed of both vehicles (before braking) not more than 10-20mph as we had just pulled onto the roundabout, from the same junction but in different lanes. He essentially started off on my left accelerated hard and then (for no reason) hit the brakes as hard as possible after manouvering over into my lane. I'd anticpated something would happen as he'd already refused to let me join his lane in the previous 50m. Therefore I was trying to give him as much space as possible and just let him go.
(For info the roundabout has 4 entry lanes and we were in the middle 2)
My question is how does the law view this, if you do an emergency stop and someone hits you, are you automatically innocent?? What if the person behind could not react in time?
BTW he was on the phone during all of this and did not stop after the "minor contact"
Just wanted someone help me understand if I am at fault or not...
Background... another car did an emergency stop on an empty roundabout (for no plausable reason!) and I touched the rear of his car with mine (no damage to either car). Total speed of both vehicles (before braking) not more than 10-20mph as we had just pulled onto the roundabout, from the same junction but in different lanes. He essentially started off on my left accelerated hard and then (for no reason) hit the brakes as hard as possible after manouvering over into my lane. I'd anticpated something would happen as he'd already refused to let me join his lane in the previous 50m. Therefore I was trying to give him as much space as possible and just let him go.
(For info the roundabout has 4 entry lanes and we were in the middle 2)
My question is how does the law view this, if you do an emergency stop and someone hits you, are you automatically innocent?? What if the person behind could not react in time?
BTW he was on the phone during all of this and did not stop after the "minor contact"
I have a mate who was following some woman, not closely, on a motorway some years back. For no reason, she hit the brakes hard, he had nowhere to go, resulting with minor damage. She admitted that she hit the brake pedal accidentally, then panicked and hit it hard (stupid bint). He was found to be at fault and lost his no claims. Oh well
Run up the back of another car and you can say goodbye to your NCB.
I had an incident where a crazed old woman in a micra rolled back into the front of my car. She jumped out claiming i had run into her! Luckily there was numerous witnesses who gave statements telling the insurance companies and the BiB what had actually happened. She maintained throughout it all that her car hadn't moved even though it was several yards from the junction she'd rolled from!
I had an incident where a crazed old woman in a micra rolled back into the front of my car. She jumped out claiming i had run into her! Luckily there was numerous witnesses who gave statements telling the insurance companies and the BiB what had actually happened. She maintained throughout it all that her car hadn't moved even though it was several yards from the junction she'd rolled from!
I would say that you are in the clear here. You say you were in different lanes as you entered the roundabout, he then cut into your lane and braked sharply? This puts him into the wrong, not you, it appears to be dangerous driving to me, however without a stack of witnesses it will be his word against yours 
kevinday said:
I would say that you are in the clear here. You say you were in different lanes as you entered the roundabout, he then cut into your lane and braked sharply? This puts him into the wrong, not you, it appears to be dangerous driving to me, however without a stack of witnesses it will be his word against yours
Agree with the above - I'm sure there was something similar on here recently - you're expected to leave space to stop, but if someone takes that space by cutting in front of you then it's not your fault.
Proving they cut in might be difficult, though.
Many would say that if your run into the rear of the car in front then you are guilty of due care.
But here is a High Court judgement that I used to write off an accident file if circs dictated.
Scott v Warren [1974] and still quoted, I understand today.
Defendant driving in a line of moving traffic was unable to avoid hitting the van in front which had made an emergency stop to avoid hitting a piece of metal which had fallen off a lorry in front of a van. Magistrates dismissed the case. Prosecution went for a "case stated' at High Court on the grounds that if the driver did not leave sufficient space between himself and the vehicle in front to avoid a collision then in breach of the Highway Code and a due care. Divisional Court disagreed holding whether a person has driven carelessly is a matter of fact: the duty of a driver following another was, as far as reasonably possible, to take up a position and to drive in such a fashion as to be able to deal with all traffic exigences REASONABLY TO BE EXPECTED.
An old case Jungnickel v Laing [1967] it was held that decelleration without warning to following traffic is not an act of negligence even on a motorway, but a driver should signal his intention to make a sudden heavy stop. (How the hell he does that beats me...)
DVD
But here is a High Court judgement that I used to write off an accident file if circs dictated.
Scott v Warren [1974] and still quoted, I understand today.
Defendant driving in a line of moving traffic was unable to avoid hitting the van in front which had made an emergency stop to avoid hitting a piece of metal which had fallen off a lorry in front of a van. Magistrates dismissed the case. Prosecution went for a "case stated' at High Court on the grounds that if the driver did not leave sufficient space between himself and the vehicle in front to avoid a collision then in breach of the Highway Code and a due care. Divisional Court disagreed holding whether a person has driven carelessly is a matter of fact: the duty of a driver following another was, as far as reasonably possible, to take up a position and to drive in such a fashion as to be able to deal with all traffic exigences REASONABLY TO BE EXPECTED.
An old case Jungnickel v Laing [1967] it was held that decelleration without warning to following traffic is not an act of negligence even on a motorway, but a driver should signal his intention to make a sudden heavy stop. (How the hell he does that beats me...)
DVD
Thanks for all your replies, I reported him anyway to BIB, so wait & see I guess.
Just goes to show doesn't matter how polite you are, or how defensive your driving style is you can't always allow for the other people on the road!
Glad I wasn't in the TVR otherwise it could of been expensive, luckily our other car has quite flexible bumpers that worked as designed!
Still 1st bump in 17years, so shouldn't really complain too much, just move on and book another Ride Drive course soon.
Cheers,
J
Just goes to show doesn't matter how polite you are, or how defensive your driving style is you can't always allow for the other people on the road!
Glad I wasn't in the TVR otherwise it could of been expensive, luckily our other car has quite flexible bumpers that worked as designed!
Still 1st bump in 17years, so shouldn't really complain too much, just move on and book another Ride Drive course soon.
Cheers,
J
Streetcop said:
"You must always be able to stop safely, on your side of the road"
So, technically it was your fault....The fact he was on the telephone should have been giving you alarm bells to be EVEN MORE careful behind him..
Glad you are ok, though.
Are you saying that if the car ahead turns out to have had an exceptionally short stopping distance (e.g., Caterham on sticky tyres), it would have been the responsibility of the following driver to have foreseen that?
There has been more attention paid lately to the fact that the estimated stopping distances in the Highway Code are quite outdated. Would it be reasonable for a following driver to use HC estimates as a guide to how effectively the car ahead might stop, and choose a following distance accordingly?
kevinday said:
I would say that you are in the clear here. You say you were in different lanes as you entered the roundabout, he then cut into your lane and braked sharply? This puts him into the wrong, not you, it appears to be dangerous driving to me, however without a stack of witnesses it will be his word against yours
Changing lanes on a roundabout is a big no-no, cutting you up is also without due care and attention, difficult to say if the braking was deliberate for your benefit - but it sounds like dangerous driving if it is. I hope it all works out for you..
flemke said:
There has been more attention paid lately to the fact that the estimated stopping distances in the Highway Code are quite outdated. Would it be reasonable for a following driver to use HC estimates as a guide to how effectively the car ahead might stop, and choose following distance accordingly?
Following distance is NOT stopping distance. It is a "reaction time plus safety margin distance".
I am almost certain that even the 'best' drivers (that includes Streetcop) would be hard pushed to stop if following a vehicle at the regulation 2s interval and that vehicle, without reason, performed an emergency stop. Before Streetcop and others jump down my throat, let me qualify "without reason". I mean it literally - not "for no reason apparent to the following driver".
observer said:
flemke said:
There has been more attention paid lately to the fact that the estimated stopping distances in the Highway Code are quite outdated. Would it be reasonable for a following driver to use HC estimates as a guide to how effectively the car ahead might stop, and choose following distance accordingly?
Following distance is NOT stopping distance. It is a "reaction time plus safety margin distance".
I am almost certain that even the 'best' drivers (that includes Streetcop) would be hard pushed to stop if following a vehicle at the regulation 2s interval and that vehicle, without reason, performed an emergency stop. Before Streetcop and others jump down my throat, let me qualify "without reason". I mean it literally - not "for no reason apparent to the following driver".
Absolutely spot on Observer, I was travelling down the M42 on a dry clear August afternoon, at least 2 seconds back from the car in front doing 65-70 when he weighed anchor for no reason (witnesses claim they saw him having a row with his passenger but I couldn't see from where I was). There was no way I could pull up my company Datsun Sunny (Almera) in that room, maybe if it had been fitted with ceramic brakes but on standards there was not a chance.
>> Edited by markmullen on Wednesday 2nd February 11:24
Some memories coming back here...
There I was, last summer, boiling hot day, sat on the A40 in Marlylebone, on me motorcycle - no room to filter. As I'm sat there, the Astra behind me nudges my rear wheel and nearly has me off (yes - I know I should have been watching the mirrors, but I was looking for a gap ahead). I look back and see the lass in the Astra look shocked - she's been crawling along putting on her makeup.
I get off and put the bike on the stand to check for damage (spoked rear wheel - v.v.v.expensive). The young lady in the Astra flies out of her car in a rage (scattering compacts, lippy and god know what else) and yells at me "You f987ing stupid wa*&er, you f&^*ing reversed into me - why don't you look where you're going!!!"
She was a little taken aback by hearing that most bikes don't have reverse...
There I was, last summer, boiling hot day, sat on the A40 in Marlylebone, on me motorcycle - no room to filter. As I'm sat there, the Astra behind me nudges my rear wheel and nearly has me off (yes - I know I should have been watching the mirrors, but I was looking for a gap ahead). I look back and see the lass in the Astra look shocked - she's been crawling along putting on her makeup.
I get off and put the bike on the stand to check for damage (spoked rear wheel - v.v.v.expensive). The young lady in the Astra flies out of her car in a rage (scattering compacts, lippy and god know what else) and yells at me "You f987ing stupid wa*&er, you f&^*ing reversed into me - why don't you look where you're going!!!"
She was a little taken aback by hearing that most bikes don't have reverse...
flemke said:
Are you saying that if the car ahead turns out to have had an exceptionally short stopping distance (e.g., Caterham on sticky tyres), it would have been the responsibility of the following driver to have foreseen that?
There has been more attention paid lately to the fact that the estimated stopping distances in the Highway Code are quite outdated. Would it be reasonable for a following driver to use HC estimates as a guide to how effectively the car ahead might stop, and choose a following distance accordingly?
I think so my friend.
It's one of the reasons I leave huge gaps on motorways. Now I had socking great brakes and sticky tyres.
My first car massed just under 2 tons and had rear drums. I suspect the HC stopping distances were accurate for that.
It's something that always worries me. In this society of claims and compensation, what's to stop someone out for a quick buck on an empty road simply swerving in front of me and nailing the brakes. Even a SLR with carbon brakes couldn't stop. No witnesses. I'm automatically at fault.
MMC said:
Some memories coming back here...
There I was, last summer, boiling hot day, sat on the A40 in Marlylebone, on me motorcycle - no room to filter. As I'm sat there, the Astra behind me nudges my rear wheel and nearly has me off (yes - I know I should have been watching the mirrors, but I was looking for a gap ahead). I look back and see the lass in the Astra look shocked - she's been crawling along putting on her makeup.
I get off and put the bike on the stand to check for damage (spoked rear wheel - v.v.v.expensive). The young lady in the Astra flies out of her car in a rage (scattering compacts, lippy and god know what else) and yells at me "You f987ing stupid wa*&er, you f&^*ing reversed into me - why don't you look where you're going!!!"
She was a little taken aback by hearing that most bikes don't have reverse...
PMSL
I had a similar situation. I was rolling up to a roundabout when a woman in a Micra ran into the back of me at about 5 mph. I got off my bike, put it on the stand (all in rush hour traffic) Looked at my back wheel, which was ok and then proceeded to pick up her numberplate which was in about 3 pieces on the floor and posted it back to her through the 1/2 inch gap in her window say ing "you might need this" and then walked off.
To say she looked shocked is an understatement.
Mr E said:
In this society of claims and compensation, what's to stop someone out for a quick buck on an empty road simply swerving in front of me and nailing the brakes.
Its actually becoming more common these days - you get an old heap of a car with 2+ scroats on board. They've carefully used blown brake bulbs or simply smashed them. Then they drive around slowly waiting for a newer car with a single occupant to appear behind them, at which point perform an emergency stop virtually ensuring you rear-end them.
Little or no evidence that the brake lights were out, no supporting witnesses and several scroats all claiming compensation for whiplash and car repairs at best. At worst, they jump out mob-handed and demand immediate recompense in cash.
The latter scenario happened to somebody I know and the BiB told her that it was depressingly common in the area where she ran her business at the time (since moved).
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