How to tackle those pesky
Discussion
Burglars:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/02/nburg02.xml
How to tackle a burglar within the law
By John Steele, Home Affairs Correspondent and Toby Helm
(Filed: 02/02/2005)
Householders can kill burglars and not face prosecution as long as they use only "reasonable force", the Director of Public Prosecutions said yesterday.
Even using a knife or a gun would not lead to a charge as long as the householder's actions were what they "honestly and instinctively" believed was necessary "in the heat of the moment".
The advice from Ken Macdonald, QC, was given in a leaflet issued by the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Crown Prosecution Service. It said that only those acting with "very excessive and gratuitous force", such as knocking out an intruder then killing him as a punishment, would risk prosecution.
It emerged that Sir Ian Blair, the new Metropolitan Police commissioner who has called for clearer guidelines, was not consulted on the wording or given an advance copy before appearing on Radio 4's Today programme to discuss the issue.
In the interview, he suggested that the existing "reasonable force" test for deciding whether to prosecute householders was not adequate and reiterated his support for a new test of "grossly disproportionate" force - a phrase suggested by the Conservatives and rejected by ministers.
But speaking at a press conference later, Sir Ian said he was satisfied with the leaflet's test of "excessive and gratuitous" force.
Launching the leaflet, entitled Householders and the Use of Force against Intruders, Mr Macdonald said: "If you are confronted by a burglar in your home and you fear that you or your family are about to be attacked, you are entitled to incapacitate that burglar to prevent him attacking you.
"The key thing to bear in mind is that, as long as someone has not stepped over that line into retribution or revenge, it is quite difficult to perceive of a level of violence, when someone is acting in fear under threat, that would not be regarded as reasonable by a prosecutor.
"This is something the intruder brings on him or herself. We do not need to be too squeamish about the situation."
Mr Macdonald said such guidance meant that in the past the CPS had not prosecuted householders who fatally stabbed or shot burglars or hit them over the head with bats, bars or sticks.
The leaflet, 100,000 copies of which will be distributed through Citizens' Advice Bureaux, police forces and libraries, states: "You are not expected to make fine judgments on the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you do only what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of your acting lawfully and in self-defence."
Three weeks ago Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, said the law would not be changed. The Government has not supported a private member's Bill by the Tory MP Patrick Mercer seeking to change "reasonable force" to a test of whether the force was "grossly disproportionate" - the phrase used in civil cases when burglars try to sue householders.
Mr Clarke said yesterday: "The key issue now is ensuring that householders understand the law."
Mr Mercer said: "This will do nothing to redress the law in favour of the victim."
So read and absorb so that you don't get it wrong and end up in prison!
Phil
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/02/nburg02.xml
How to tackle a burglar within the law
By John Steele, Home Affairs Correspondent and Toby Helm
(Filed: 02/02/2005)
Householders can kill burglars and not face prosecution as long as they use only "reasonable force", the Director of Public Prosecutions said yesterday.
Even using a knife or a gun would not lead to a charge as long as the householder's actions were what they "honestly and instinctively" believed was necessary "in the heat of the moment".
The advice from Ken Macdonald, QC, was given in a leaflet issued by the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Crown Prosecution Service. It said that only those acting with "very excessive and gratuitous force", such as knocking out an intruder then killing him as a punishment, would risk prosecution.
It emerged that Sir Ian Blair, the new Metropolitan Police commissioner who has called for clearer guidelines, was not consulted on the wording or given an advance copy before appearing on Radio 4's Today programme to discuss the issue.
In the interview, he suggested that the existing "reasonable force" test for deciding whether to prosecute householders was not adequate and reiterated his support for a new test of "grossly disproportionate" force - a phrase suggested by the Conservatives and rejected by ministers.
But speaking at a press conference later, Sir Ian said he was satisfied with the leaflet's test of "excessive and gratuitous" force.
Launching the leaflet, entitled Householders and the Use of Force against Intruders, Mr Macdonald said: "If you are confronted by a burglar in your home and you fear that you or your family are about to be attacked, you are entitled to incapacitate that burglar to prevent him attacking you.
"The key thing to bear in mind is that, as long as someone has not stepped over that line into retribution or revenge, it is quite difficult to perceive of a level of violence, when someone is acting in fear under threat, that would not be regarded as reasonable by a prosecutor.
"This is something the intruder brings on him or herself. We do not need to be too squeamish about the situation."
Mr Macdonald said such guidance meant that in the past the CPS had not prosecuted householders who fatally stabbed or shot burglars or hit them over the head with bats, bars or sticks.
The leaflet, 100,000 copies of which will be distributed through Citizens' Advice Bureaux, police forces and libraries, states: "You are not expected to make fine judgments on the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you do only what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of your acting lawfully and in self-defence."
Three weeks ago Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, said the law would not be changed. The Government has not supported a private member's Bill by the Tory MP Patrick Mercer seeking to change "reasonable force" to a test of whether the force was "grossly disproportionate" - the phrase used in civil cases when burglars try to sue householders.
Mr Clarke said yesterday: "The key issue now is ensuring that householders understand the law."
Mr Mercer said: "This will do nothing to redress the law in favour of the victim."
So read and absorb so that you don't get it wrong and end up in prison!
Phil
Balmoral Green said:
It really isnt that difficult folks. Just keep all your valuables in a box at the back door. Then when you are burgled, you dont have any mess to clean up and there is no risk of a confrontation that could turn nasty for either party.
Hmmmmn. And I just happen to keep my plastic explosive alongside the wife's jewellry in that box, too.
Tell it to a guy I knew at university.
Was in bed with his GF when he heard the outside door of the flat being kicked in.
Jumped out of bed in his birthday suit and ran to the top of the stairs (1st floor flat) to see 2 guys with baseball bats charging up towards him.
Instinctively grabs kitchen knife and lashes out, cutting 1st guy's face.
2 guys do a runner & he calls the cops.
To be charged with ABH and suspended from university in his final year.
You can't make this stuff up. Its so stupid. 
Was in bed with his GF when he heard the outside door of the flat being kicked in.
Jumped out of bed in his birthday suit and ran to the top of the stairs (1st floor flat) to see 2 guys with baseball bats charging up towards him.
Instinctively grabs kitchen knife and lashes out, cutting 1st guy's face.
2 guys do a runner & he calls the cops.
To be charged with ABH and suspended from university in his final year.
You can't make this stuff up. Its so stupid. I have a Samurai sword in my room. I've been told it's legal so long as I don't take it out of the house. Should make burglars think twice then.
Only worry here is that burglars with absolutely no regard for the law (ie all of them) may switch to drastic defensive means themselves, and go into people's houses armed to the teeth, prepared for a stakeout.
Only worry here is that burglars with absolutely no regard for the law (ie all of them) may switch to drastic defensive means themselves, and go into people's houses armed to the teeth, prepared for a stakeout.
Right come on - this is all media bollocks as I said in the other thread.
<15 people in the last 15 years have been CONVICTED for assaulting a burglar accoding to the CPS yesterday. All of those convictions (including Martins) are as far as I've seen completely justified. 1 even involved someone pouring petrol onto and setting fire to an incapacitated intruder, anyone capable of doing that in cold blood bloody well should be locked up!
The only reason this is about is because the newspapers sell papers running this non story feeding on fear...
>> Edited by mr_tony on Wednesday 2nd February 13:07
<15 people in the last 15 years have been CONVICTED for assaulting a burglar accoding to the CPS yesterday. All of those convictions (including Martins) are as far as I've seen completely justified. 1 even involved someone pouring petrol onto and setting fire to an incapacitated intruder, anyone capable of doing that in cold blood bloody well should be locked up!
The only reason this is about is because the newspapers sell papers running this non story feeding on fear...
>> Edited by mr_tony on Wednesday 2nd February 13:07
mr_tony said:
Right come on - this is all media bollocks as I said in the other thread.
<15 people in the last 15 years have been CONVICTED for assaulting a burglar accoding to the CPS yesterday.
And how many have been charged? How many have had their lives blighted by the sheer horror of being accused of carrying out a crime only for the CPS to later drop the case, or for the trial jury to find them innocent? Its not the "15" convicted that the issue, its the rather larger number of attempted convictions that the CPS need to admit to.
Sheepy
sheepy said:
Right come on - this is all media bollocks as I said in the other thread.
<15 people in the last 15 years have been CONVICTED for assaulting a burglar accoding to the CPS yesterday.
And how many have been charged? How many have had their lives blighted by the sheer horror of being accused of carrying out a crime only for the CPS to later drop the case, or for the trial jury to find them innocent? Its not the "15" convicted that the issue, its the rather larger number of attempted convictions that the CPS need to admit to.
Sheepy
Exactly the point! They shouldnt even be charged for it. Theyre the victims not the "effing" (can i say that? ) burglar bastards.
Precisely! The chap I knew at university nearly had his entire life blighted simply because he defended himself and his GF from a very real threat in their own home.
Thankfully the case was eventually dropped, but not before a lot of stress and heartache.
To make matters worse, he knew exactly who the would-be assailants were; they "lived" in the squat next door to his flat, so he also had to live in fear of reprisals whilst trying to salvage his degree, future career and clean criminal record.
Thankfully the case was eventually dropped, but not before a lot of stress and heartache.
To make matters worse, he knew exactly who the would-be assailants were; they "lived" in the squat next door to his flat, so he also had to live in fear of reprisals whilst trying to salvage his degree, future career and clean criminal record.
sheepy said:
And how many have been charged?
Well I agree with you there sheepy.
I don't blame the law for that though, and the law doesn't need changing.
It's always been perfectly clear to judges / juries - (hence the lack of convictions) so perhaps it's something the Police/CPS should look at?
I'd be very interested to see the number of charges brought against householders by intruders that made it to court. I doubt it's that high.
>> Edited by mr_tony on Wednesday 2nd February 14:58
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