Is anyone looking forward to the 981.2 Caysters?
Discussion
I know we're a bit niche here compared to the general public, but is anyone here looking forward to the 981.2? And when I say looking forward, I mean with half an eye on possibly buying one, turbo 4-pot and all.
At the mo I personally have no interest esp after reading the 991.2 passenger review that got posted up the other day. If Porsche have managed to crucify the 911's flat-6 character with turbos, god knows what they've done to the Cayster
Although that said I can imagine that if it was your first Porsche drive and entry to the marque from say BMW you wouldn't care as you don't miss what you don't know
At the mo I personally have no interest esp after reading the 991.2 passenger review that got posted up the other day. If Porsche have managed to crucify the 911's flat-6 character with turbos, god knows what they've done to the Cayster
Although that said I can imagine that if it was your first Porsche drive and entry to the marque from say BMW you wouldn't care as you don't miss what you don't know
I would purchase an F Type before a four pot Porsche.
I don't have too much of an issue with forced induction, but I like my sports cars to be multi-cylindered. Had they stuck with a flat six of reduced capacity and then fitted a turbo, that would have been an acceptable compromise for me.
I compete in a 4 pot turbo (Evo) and although it's damn quick and the slug of power puts a smile on your face, I wouldn't want the characteristics of this type of engine as a daily driver.
I don't have too much of an issue with forced induction, but I like my sports cars to be multi-cylindered. Had they stuck with a flat six of reduced capacity and then fitted a turbo, that would have been an acceptable compromise for me.
I compete in a 4 pot turbo (Evo) and although it's damn quick and the slug of power puts a smile on your face, I wouldn't want the characteristics of this type of engine as a daily driver.
Edited by Trev450 on Tuesday 11th August 11:35
Not really looking forward to it.
I think due to the emissions targets etc we are at the point where perhaps the most exciting cars based on N/A combustion engines have now been made.
Take the Ferrari 488 for example, faster than the 458 it may be, but I feel the main reason to buy one over the 458 speciale aperta is purely because it has a new shape and some new tech. Even my 360 is too fast for UK roads. I've not seen any reviews say they prefer the fact that the engine is turbo-charged, more that they are impressed that it doesn't feel too turbo charged!
I think we are at a "take your pick" moment - ie this is what's left of the n/a combustion engined cars, make your choice.
There will be new and exciting cars in the future, but perhaps this is a period of consolidation where electric / hybrid / turbo cars take time to get really interesting. Electric cars will have their charms too once batteries get lighter and we can enjoy incredible handling.
Happy to have a flat-six powered Boxster on order, and the death of the V8 makes me feel even more happy to have a V8-engined Ferrari in the garage as well.
I think due to the emissions targets etc we are at the point where perhaps the most exciting cars based on N/A combustion engines have now been made.
Take the Ferrari 488 for example, faster than the 458 it may be, but I feel the main reason to buy one over the 458 speciale aperta is purely because it has a new shape and some new tech. Even my 360 is too fast for UK roads. I've not seen any reviews say they prefer the fact that the engine is turbo-charged, more that they are impressed that it doesn't feel too turbo charged!
I think we are at a "take your pick" moment - ie this is what's left of the n/a combustion engined cars, make your choice.
There will be new and exciting cars in the future, but perhaps this is a period of consolidation where electric / hybrid / turbo cars take time to get really interesting. Electric cars will have their charms too once batteries get lighter and we can enjoy incredible handling.
Happy to have a flat-six powered Boxster on order, and the death of the V8 makes me feel even more happy to have a V8-engined Ferrari in the garage as well.
I'm not anti-turbo. They have their place and their own appeal. Certainly old-school turbos with lag and then a BIG kick in the back when they spool up. What I'm not keen on is trying to make turbo's feel like n/a. They'll never have the throttle response and it dials down that crude slug of power that I actually want from a turbo charged car.
The sad thing is that any 4-pot turbo anyone makes now is going to be trying to behave like n/a, which you simply can't do better than n/a. Instead of emphasising what can make turbos fun.
So no, not interested unless Porsche decide to go old school with it. Which they won't. Much like Ferrari should have taken lessons from the F40 for their turbo model rather than trying to disguise the fact that it's turbocharged. More power is all it offers and as someone else has already rightly pointed out, we don't really need any more power.
The sad thing is that any 4-pot turbo anyone makes now is going to be trying to behave like n/a, which you simply can't do better than n/a. Instead of emphasising what can make turbos fun.
So no, not interested unless Porsche decide to go old school with it. Which they won't. Much like Ferrari should have taken lessons from the F40 for their turbo model rather than trying to disguise the fact that it's turbocharged. More power is all it offers and as someone else has already rightly pointed out, we don't really need any more power.
juansolo said:
I'm not anti-turbo. They have their place and their own appeal. Certainly old-school turbos with lag and then a BIG kick in the back when they spool up. What I'm not keen on is trying to make turbo's feel like n/a. They'll never have the throttle response and it dials down that crude slug of power that I actually want from a turbo charged car.
The sad thing is that any 4-pot turbo anyone makes now is going to be trying to behave like n/a, which you simply can't do better than n/a. Instead of emphasising what can make turbos fun.
So no, not interested unless Porsche decide to go old school with it. Which they won't. Much like Ferrari should have taken lessons from the F40 for their turbo model rather than trying to disguise the fact that it's turbocharged. More power is all it offers and as someone else has already rightly pointed out, we don't really need any more power.
That's funny, I'm almost the exact oppositeThe sad thing is that any 4-pot turbo anyone makes now is going to be trying to behave like n/a, which you simply can't do better than n/a. Instead of emphasising what can make turbos fun.
So no, not interested unless Porsche decide to go old school with it. Which they won't. Much like Ferrari should have taken lessons from the F40 for their turbo model rather than trying to disguise the fact that it's turbocharged. More power is all it offers and as someone else has already rightly pointed out, we don't really need any more power.
If Porsche has to go turbo, I wanted then to make the engine feel as NA as possible to retain its character even if it'd never feel exactly like a NA motor. I'd rather they used forced induction to lower emissions and decrease engine size, but still make you rev it for the power rather then giving the now completely standard and generic max torque from <2K rpm to >5K rpm. It would have been soooo much better if they'd just engineered a lovely linear increase in torque from 2K to 5.5K. Unfortunately it seems that they've succumbed to the torque wars whereby every car has to go like a stabbed rat from just over tickover
I'm here all week! 
anonymous said:
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True I reckon. My mate and his wife have a 996 and both of them are interested in cars and quite knowledgeable. The first thing she said when I showed her the 991 article (haven't shown it to him yet) was that it'll make it an easier DD...!anonymous said:
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If you switch PSE off in a 981 (I think it's rather fun but appreciate that not everyone likes shouty zorsts) there is actually a nice mechanical noise behind it all - only problem is that the valve still opens at 4.5K rpm or so (at least on mine GTS it does) so you can't hear it anymore. Would be good if you could actually switch PSE *off* off for when you fancy it anonymous said:
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People can neg out all they want, it's just whether they manage to do it in a way that doesn't deliberately piss on people's chips and come across badly 
No one here may have driven a 991.2, but constant torque from 1.8k to 5k rpm is pretty a strong argument I would suggest. Many people will have driven/passengered in motors with exactly the same torque delivery (if not power) so will know what it's like. I'll defer my personal final judgement, and pray that I'm wrong, until I get in a 991.2 and find that it still delivers like a NA motor and the marketing spiel was b
ks, or others on here do. Porsche may (hopefully) have done clever things with turbo lag, but the lack of increasing thrust after 1.8K that ends in a crescendo will be very obvious. All that said, I may be a bit stuck in the past and still think of 911s as more of a sportscar in the grand scheme of things rather than a GT. Maybe I'll just have to recalibrate my head and it'll be fine It is tempting to get into a convoluted discussion about this, but the bottom line is really very simple: turbo 4 pots are extremely likely to be horrid engines for anything pretending to be a driver's car.
A rough-and-ready test for whether or not a turbo engine will feel tolerable is this: would the engine still be broadly appropriate to the application without the FI? If it wouldn't, it will be relying heavily on boost and will feel like it: flat torque curve, dull sound, no point revving it out, etc. A 4 cyl 2.0 petrol engine with a low rev limit is not a sensible engine for a 1400kg sports car, so a turbo flat four will be insipid.
You cannot compare a FI V8 to a 2 litre 4 pot. Different worlds. A 4 litre engine with a bit of turbo assistance is (potentially) tolerable, but an emissions-special 4 cyl is an abomination in the face of the Lord.
I also agree with Cmoose that there is already a lot wrong with the 9x1 cars, but this is of a different order of magnitude. As I have said to plenty of salesmen at OPCs (and been met with sad faces), to the buyers that actually care, the best thing about Porsche is the flat 6s.
I would be utterly amazed if the new engines are not horrible, and I would be equally amazed if it hurts sales much. I bet people who care about throttle response, induction noise and primary control weights and feedback are about 10% of the Porsche-buying demographic. 300lb/ft of torque from 1800 revs will actually appeal to a lot of buyers. Even car journos care more about pops and farts from the exhaust than steering feel (which is absent, pretty much, from the 981).
A rough-and-ready test for whether or not a turbo engine will feel tolerable is this: would the engine still be broadly appropriate to the application without the FI? If it wouldn't, it will be relying heavily on boost and will feel like it: flat torque curve, dull sound, no point revving it out, etc. A 4 cyl 2.0 petrol engine with a low rev limit is not a sensible engine for a 1400kg sports car, so a turbo flat four will be insipid.
You cannot compare a FI V8 to a 2 litre 4 pot. Different worlds. A 4 litre engine with a bit of turbo assistance is (potentially) tolerable, but an emissions-special 4 cyl is an abomination in the face of the Lord.
I also agree with Cmoose that there is already a lot wrong with the 9x1 cars, but this is of a different order of magnitude. As I have said to plenty of salesmen at OPCs (and been met with sad faces), to the buyers that actually care, the best thing about Porsche is the flat 6s.
I would be utterly amazed if the new engines are not horrible, and I would be equally amazed if it hurts sales much. I bet people who care about throttle response, induction noise and primary control weights and feedback are about 10% of the Porsche-buying demographic. 300lb/ft of torque from 1800 revs will actually appeal to a lot of buyers. Even car journos care more about pops and farts from the exhaust than steering feel (which is absent, pretty much, from the 981).
I spent a while contemplating if the turbo would be better for my daily drive and in the end ordered a "981.1" last week. The Cayman will likely get slightly cheaper, expect more safety systems, better nav and a few visual tweaks as well.
It came down to the fact I test drove the Golf R, Leon Cupra, A45 and TT and all were a pretty boring engine experience compared to even the base Cayman.
It came down to the fact I test drove the Golf R, Leon Cupra, A45 and TT and all were a pretty boring engine experience compared to even the base Cayman.
Trev450 said:
I would purchase an F Type before a four pot Porsche.
Interesting comment. I agree that the F-type looks a serious sportscar from about £60k. However, unless you get carried away in the options list Boxster/Cayman should work out waaay cheaper.Entry Porsches are selling against stuff like BMW Z4 and I doubt there will be any difficulties there.
Here's the bit that I struggle with - why would you buy a Porsche with a merely capable engine? You would have so many other, one or more of which is almost bound to be right for any particular punter:-
(1) Second-hand Porsches with proper engines.
(2) (Perhaps)less exciting but prestigious 6 and 8 cylinder FI cars from Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Jag etc. There are still plenty of these around. Nice badges and big engines are still available as a package.
(3) Dynamically inferior but far more practical cars with equally dull but effective 4 cylinder engines. Turbo shopping cars aren't actually all that bad to drive...
(4) Cars with equally crap engines but a more involving driving experience - Lotus, Caterham, etc etc.
I would fall into category 1 or 4. A lot of people would fall into 2 or 3. But surely not many buyers fall into none of these categories?
(1) Second-hand Porsches with proper engines.
(2) (Perhaps)less exciting but prestigious 6 and 8 cylinder FI cars from Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Jag etc. There are still plenty of these around. Nice badges and big engines are still available as a package.
(3) Dynamically inferior but far more practical cars with equally dull but effective 4 cylinder engines. Turbo shopping cars aren't actually all that bad to drive...
(4) Cars with equally crap engines but a more involving driving experience - Lotus, Caterham, etc etc.
I would fall into category 1 or 4. A lot of people would fall into 2 or 3. But surely not many buyers fall into none of these categories?
2 ponderings:
Cayman going 4-cyl turbo and sub-boxster will be good for the Lotus Evora - Cayman loses the vital engine advantage and the price gap widens, so they become less comparable. Evora will do better being seen as a cheaper 911 rival (but will have negligible effect on Porsche, so not something for Porsche to worry about).
Lots of low-down turbo torque on these new engines - is this the new bore score crisis on its way?
Cayman going 4-cyl turbo and sub-boxster will be good for the Lotus Evora - Cayman loses the vital engine advantage and the price gap widens, so they become less comparable. Evora will do better being seen as a cheaper 911 rival (but will have negligible effect on Porsche, so not something for Porsche to worry about).
Lots of low-down turbo torque on these new engines - is this the new bore score crisis on its way?
Ozzie Osmond said:
Trev450 said:
I would purchase an F Type before a four pot Porsche.
Interesting comment. I agree that the F-type looks a serious sportscar from about £60k. However, unless you get carried away in the options list Boxster/Cayman should work out waaay cheaper.Entry Porsches are selling against stuff like BMW Z4 and I doubt there will be any difficulties there.
braddo said:
2 ponderings:
Cayman going 4-cyl turbo and sub-boxster will be good for the Lotus Evora - Cayman loses the vital engine advantage and the price gap widens, so they become less comparable. Evora will do better being seen as a cheaper 911 rival (but will have negligible effect on Porsche, so not something for Porsche to worry about).
Lots of low-down turbo torque on these new engines - is this the new bore score crisis on its way?
Yep. I would definitely choose an Evora over a 4 cyl Porsche. A really good point. But it will only apply to people who would consider a Lotus at all (which must be a tiny proportion of Porsche buyers).Cayman going 4-cyl turbo and sub-boxster will be good for the Lotus Evora - Cayman loses the vital engine advantage and the price gap widens, so they become less comparable. Evora will do better being seen as a cheaper 911 rival (but will have negligible effect on Porsche, so not something for Porsche to worry about).
Lots of low-down turbo torque on these new engines - is this the new bore score crisis on its way?
Porsche will probably not be hurt by any of this, as brand cache is hard to gain and very hard to lose. But, looking at it objectively, a Porsche with a dull engine is not much of a value proposition. I would be surprised if people at Porsche aren't quite worried about relying so heavily on brand image while losing what makes the brand special. Imagine an argument with someone who puts forward some competitor car as better than a Cayman - the answe is always 'engine'. What will it be now? Porsches are fairly slow, handle very well but not impeccably, aren't terribly focussed, have average interiors, no longer have much steering feel, have powerful but not feelsome brakes, etc etc.
The new 4-cylinder engine could be anything from a disaster ( single turbo with lots of turbo lag, no top end power, farty sound) to a very nice engine indeed (variable geometry turbocharger paired with an electric turbo or rather supercharger). The latter is very unlikely to happen because it requires a 48V electric system which not even the 991.2 has.
My expectations are not very high and I can't say I am looking forward to it. Part of me wishes Porsche would skip the 4-cylinder turbos and go straight for the small 3-cylinder n/a + hybrid approach. Recently heard a i8 drive by and was pleasantly surprised by the sound it generated (not the one through the speakers
).
My expectations are not very high and I can't say I am looking forward to it. Part of me wishes Porsche would skip the 4-cylinder turbos and go straight for the small 3-cylinder n/a + hybrid approach. Recently heard a i8 drive by and was pleasantly surprised by the sound it generated (not the one through the speakers
).anonymous said:
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But look at the pricing and margins. All those brands have won volume at the expense of prices and profits. Not a game Porsche needs to play. The answer to the cars that can compete at all as driver's cars is 'engine', but you're right that 'handling' is what sees off the more mainstream alternatives (although the Porsche also has the better engine there too unless you love power numbers on a page).
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