Legal rights for one who has been conned...
Discussion
On behalf of a close female friend I'd appreciate some advice from fellow PH legal experts...
The guy she was in a relationship with until a few months ago convinced her to loan him £40k which he said was to buy a business and other related expenses. She gave him £25k of her savings and took out personal loans for £15k and gave him that too.
He did buy a business, but soon sold it again and lost all the money gambling. She knew nothing of this until he became more and more absent, and eventually found out from a friend of his that the business was sold. He doesn't dispute what happened to the money.
Her situation now is that her income barely covers her mortgage plus the repayments on the personal loans she took out on his behalf. She is now trying to sell her house and if she gets a good price might just manage to clear all the debt.
I haven't been able to convince her to seek legal advice yet - she feels too embarrassed and stupid to talk to anyone else about it (for the record - she's trusting, nieve, but absolutely is not stupid). Is there any chance she could get this guy in front of a court to face justice?
Don
The guy she was in a relationship with until a few months ago convinced her to loan him £40k which he said was to buy a business and other related expenses. She gave him £25k of her savings and took out personal loans for £15k and gave him that too.
He did buy a business, but soon sold it again and lost all the money gambling. She knew nothing of this until he became more and more absent, and eventually found out from a friend of his that the business was sold. He doesn't dispute what happened to the money.
Her situation now is that her income barely covers her mortgage plus the repayments on the personal loans she took out on his behalf. She is now trying to sell her house and if she gets a good price might just manage to clear all the debt.
I haven't been able to convince her to seek legal advice yet - she feels too embarrassed and stupid to talk to anyone else about it (for the record - she's trusting, nieve, but absolutely is not stupid). Is there any chance she could get this guy in front of a court to face justice?
Don
The only one that immediately springs to mind is a very thin possibility of obtaining property by deception. It's more likely to be a civil matter from what you've told us here.
Your friend needs to get some legal advice pronto. How embarassed will she be if she loses her house becuase she defaults on future mortgage payments if the interest rates go up...?
Your friend needs to get some legal advice pronto. How embarassed will she be if she loses her house becuase she defaults on future mortgage payments if the interest rates go up...?
Throwing money after bad is a concern, and I don't want to encourage her to seek advice if there's little chance of any success.
Dibble - when you say 'it's a civil matter' - I understand that means it's not criminal, but in practical terms are you saying there may be something that can be pursued?
Don
Dibble - when you say 'it's a civil matter' - I understand that means it's not criminal, but in practical terms are you saying there may be something that can be pursued?
Don
Don - civil matter basically means something the Police wouldn't deal with - she may be able to pursue a claim through the civil courts.
She really needs to put down a rough outline of what's happened - dates, amounts etc in chronological order, then go and see someone, even if it's only Citizens Advice Bureau.
Most solicitors run a free first hour/half hour consultation - or you could try posting in Pie and Piston as well.
She really needs to put down a rough outline of what's happened - dates, amounts etc in chronological order, then go and see someone, even if it's only Citizens Advice Bureau.
Most solicitors run a free first hour/half hour consultation - or you could try posting in Pie and Piston as well.
One factor is whether she had a verbal agreement with him about either repayment terms, or equity stake in the business (I'm assuming no formal written contract).
Anything written down about any verbal agreements would help her case -....
any contemporanious notes of their discussions ? diary notes ? do any of her friends (e.g: potential witness ) know she loaned him money ? Any letters between them regarding the loan ?
If nothing at all is written down it makes her case harder.....she can talk to the Citizens Advice Bureau to get an idea of where she stands -and then perhaps seek a litigation lawyer's advice (wont be cheap )
(The C.A.B have previously given me very useful and accurate advice re a very nasty personal situation where someone was falsely claiming they had a verbal agreement with me re tenany / lodging etc. )
Anything written down about any verbal agreements would help her case -....
any contemporanious notes of their discussions ? diary notes ? do any of her friends (e.g: potential witness ) know she loaned him money ? Any letters between them regarding the loan ?
If nothing at all is written down it makes her case harder.....she can talk to the Citizens Advice Bureau to get an idea of where she stands -and then perhaps seek a litigation lawyer's advice (wont be cheap )
(The C.A.B have previously given me very useful and accurate advice re a very nasty personal situation where someone was falsely claiming they had a verbal agreement with me re tenany / lodging etc. )
Gambling is the magic word here. If he joins gamblers anonymous there is no chance of her getting her money back. Conmen who borrow from legitimate sources such as banks etc unsecured get away with paying as little as 10p in the pound before getting debts discharged if they can prove they are a member of GA. Best bet is employ a thug and offer 30% of what he recovers. You may be surprised at what comes back but the law is no damn use in this kind of thing.
nonegreen said:
You may be surprised at what comes back but the law is no damn use in this kind of thing.
Yes, real life stuff like this is the law of the jungle. With the law you'll get punished properly for going 10mph too fast, nothing for stealing £40,000 and thanked for doing stuff like Bush/Cheney's pal Kenneth Lay at Enron did.
It's bad to mug a granny for £20 but OK to 'lose' her pension fund and leave her penniless. The law is all based on politeness, the size of the crime is irrelevant.
Globulators said:
You may be surprised at what comes back but the law is no damn use in this kind of thing.
Yes, real life stuff like this is the law of the jungle. With the law you'll get punished properly for going 10mph too fast, nothing for stealing £40,000 and thanked for doing stuff like Bush/Cheney's pal Kenneth Lay at Enron did.
It's bad to mug a granny for £20 but OK to 'lose' her pension fund and leave her penniless. The law is all based on politeness, the size of the crime is irrelevant.
Suspect it is because mugging is sort of two crimes ; theft and assault.
To be honest, whilst she probably would "win" her chances of retrieving stuff are nil. I suspect this person will have little or nothing in the way of assets (as it's probably gambled away).
She's learnt a very expensive lesson. Most people do ; just not £ 40,000. Sadly, I suspect it will have to be chalked up to experience.
Globulators said:HOW TRUE THAT IS.
You may be surprised at what comes back but the law is no damn use in this kind of thing.
Yes, real life stuff like this is the law of the jungle. With the law you'll get punished properly for going 10mph too fast, nothing for stealing £40,000 and thanked for doing stuff like Bush/Cheney's pal Kenneth Lay at Enron did.
It's bad to mug a granny for £20 but OK to 'lose' her pension fund and leave her penniless. The law is all based on politeness, the size of the crime is irrelevant.
Thanks for all the opinions - sadly the views here are pretty much as I thought, though I will encourage her to follow up on the CAB/legal consultation.
There would be a lot of satisfaction in the baseball bat approach and if she wanted to she has better connections to get that done than me. But he's just not worth risking going to prison for.
She has found out since that there have been 4 others to get similarly conned before her, including his own mother, so if there is ever any money for repayments it will be spread thin. It makes me sick to see scum like that ruin the lives of good people and get away with it, but it seems there's no justice possible without becoming a criminal yourself.
There would be a lot of satisfaction in the baseball bat approach and if she wanted to she has better connections to get that done than me. But he's just not worth risking going to prison for.
She has found out since that there have been 4 others to get similarly conned before her, including his own mother, so if there is ever any money for repayments it will be spread thin. It makes me sick to see scum like that ruin the lives of good people and get away with it, but it seems there's no justice possible without becoming a criminal yourself.
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