Suspension, geometry, bunny hops, confusion!!
Discussion
Afternoon all,
I'm trying to teach myself how to bunnyhop properly on flats, and I'm getting confused!
I've got two bikes...
1. A Cove Handjob hardtail with 85-110mm forks.
2. A Specialized Stumpjumper 650B with 150mm of travel front and rear.
On the hardtail, I can get the front wheel up. Only a few inches at present, but up nonetheless. I can barely get the back wheel off the ground at all though.
On the full suss, on the other hand, I can get the back wheel up fairly well, but really struggle to get the front wheel more than an inch or so off the ground!
Any thoughts on what's going on? I assume I've got my weight naturally further back on the hardtail, but I'm not sure what to do about it. The Stumpy already has a significantly shorter stem than the Handjob at 40mm vs 70mm...
I'm trying to teach myself how to bunnyhop properly on flats, and I'm getting confused!
I've got two bikes...
1. A Cove Handjob hardtail with 85-110mm forks.
2. A Specialized Stumpjumper 650B with 150mm of travel front and rear.
On the hardtail, I can get the front wheel up. Only a few inches at present, but up nonetheless. I can barely get the back wheel off the ground at all though.
On the full suss, on the other hand, I can get the back wheel up fairly well, but really struggle to get the front wheel more than an inch or so off the ground!
Any thoughts on what's going on? I assume I've got my weight naturally further back on the hardtail, but I'm not sure what to do about it. The Stumpy already has a significantly shorter stem than the Handjob at 40mm vs 70mm...
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/how-to-b...
ETA: That came across as a rude 'Google it yourself' kind of post, wasn't intended that way. Just much easier to post a link to a video than it is to describe in words over the internet.
ETA: That came across as a rude 'Google it yourself' kind of post, wasn't intended that way. Just much easier to post a link to a video than it is to describe in words over the internet.
Edited by justanother5tar on Sunday 6th September 17:23
justanother5tar said:
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/how-to-b...
ETA: That came across as a rude 'Google it yourself' kind of post, wasn't intended that way. Just much easier to post a link to a video than it is to describe in words over the internet.
That's the problem though... I've tried a few of those videos, articles and the like, but I'm more or less getting one end of a bunnyhop on one bike, and the other end on the other bike. I just can't get both ends together on one bike!ETA: That came across as a rude 'Google it yourself' kind of post, wasn't intended that way. Just much easier to post a link to a video than it is to describe in words over the internet.
The "trick" with bunny hops is working out that you effectively "lever" yourself into the air by using the chain stays!
Roll along at walking pace, pedals level, best foot forwards. Pump down into the front suspension of the bike, with both arms, then let the bike rebound, and as it does so, stand up, staying central. As the bike rises up, let it do so by bringing your hands up and towards your chest. At this stage, you shouldn't be pulling the handlebars upwards as such, more just allowing the bike to bounce upwards (you can, when you get good at it and learn to control your inputs, pull at this point to make a very high hop indeed, but whilst learning that tends to cause instability)
At this point, the bike and your body form two sides of a triangle, with the front wheel at least a foot in the air. This should have started to accelerate your mass upwards, and as the bike is now angled upwards at some 45deg, the bottom bracket has effectively lifted you upwards by your feet.
This isn't a "flat land" manual so don't move too far backwards on the bike trying to hold the front up! In the video i have linked below, Neil has the front up for a long time(to make obvious/show the process), and to do that, he needs to move his weight backwards. For a rapid hop, over say a fallen tree, you will be lifting the rear no more than 1 sec after the front, so not only is there no time to move backwards, it will hinder your ability to get the front of the bike up high!
Now you need to "explode" upwards off the rear wheel, extending your arms, and bending your legs to absorb the bike up towards your body, which as the rear wheel is busy bouncing off the floor, fires the bike into the air. As it levels out, get read to re-extend your legs to absorb the landing etc.
In all cases it's generally a lot easy to have something to hop as a marker / timing indicator, so put a small stick or mark a line to use as a consistent take off reference.
Good video footage of this is also here:
Donny_teaches_bunnyhops
The key, is making the first moves a controlled downwards pump (not a pull) and then the timing and aggression of the forwards thrust off the rear wheel!
Try each sperately, then link into a single movement. Practice makes perfect!
Roll along at walking pace, pedals level, best foot forwards. Pump down into the front suspension of the bike, with both arms, then let the bike rebound, and as it does so, stand up, staying central. As the bike rises up, let it do so by bringing your hands up and towards your chest. At this stage, you shouldn't be pulling the handlebars upwards as such, more just allowing the bike to bounce upwards (you can, when you get good at it and learn to control your inputs, pull at this point to make a very high hop indeed, but whilst learning that tends to cause instability)
At this point, the bike and your body form two sides of a triangle, with the front wheel at least a foot in the air. This should have started to accelerate your mass upwards, and as the bike is now angled upwards at some 45deg, the bottom bracket has effectively lifted you upwards by your feet.
This isn't a "flat land" manual so don't move too far backwards on the bike trying to hold the front up! In the video i have linked below, Neil has the front up for a long time(to make obvious/show the process), and to do that, he needs to move his weight backwards. For a rapid hop, over say a fallen tree, you will be lifting the rear no more than 1 sec after the front, so not only is there no time to move backwards, it will hinder your ability to get the front of the bike up high!
Now you need to "explode" upwards off the rear wheel, extending your arms, and bending your legs to absorb the bike up towards your body, which as the rear wheel is busy bouncing off the floor, fires the bike into the air. As it levels out, get read to re-extend your legs to absorb the landing etc.
In all cases it's generally a lot easy to have something to hop as a marker / timing indicator, so put a small stick or mark a line to use as a consistent take off reference.
Good video footage of this is also here:
Donny_teaches_bunnyhops
The key, is making the first moves a controlled downwards pump (not a pull) and then the timing and aggression of the forwards thrust off the rear wheel!
Try each sperately, then link into a single movement. Practice makes perfect!
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 6th September 18:02
Kermit power said:
That's the problem though... I've tried a few of those videos, articles and the like, but I'm more or less getting one end of a bunnyhop on one bike, and the other end on the other bike. I just can't get both ends together on one bike!
Do it on the hardtail first. Then transfer it over to the full susser when you've worked it out.I posted that particular video for the middle bit, where he says learn how to do the front then the back and put them both together. It works quite well and a few lads I used to ride with learned that way. Personally I think I was lucky and just 'got it' from the start.
Good pedals help too, as do shoes/trainers that work well with them. I ride DMR V8's which have quite long pins in them, my DC's grip to them very well, meaning I can 'drag' the back of my bike up quite easily.
Very much a trial and error thing and persist until you nail it. Its a very simple thing to do, when you get it you'll be questioning why you struggled to it so much.
Good luck.
justanother5tar said:
meaning I can 'drag' the back of my bike up quite easily.
er, try not to do this! The back of the bike comes up, not because you drag it up with your feet (a-la "spd" hop) but because it is bouncing up off the ground, which you firmly rammed it into as you initiated the hop!(it also rises because when its tilted backwards at 45deg halfway through the move, its CofG is high, so when you push the bars forwards as you leap forwards off the back wheel, the bike will rotate around its CofG, lifting the rear of the bike)
Do you have access to a rigid bike?
That's the best way to learn the technique. I got lazy over the years of using clips, but I could probably still haul a BMX (for example) into the air. Although, now I'm 16 1/2 stone as opposed to about 8 stone when I learned, I'm not sure I'd get a huge amount of height.
Using a bike with suspension will mean that you're using the suspension more than the correct technique.
That's the best way to learn the technique. I got lazy over the years of using clips, but I could probably still haul a BMX (for example) into the air. Although, now I'm 16 1/2 stone as opposed to about 8 stone when I learned, I'm not sure I'd get a huge amount of height.
Using a bike with suspension will mean that you're using the suspension more than the correct technique.
Kell said:
Do you have access to a rigid bike?
That's the best way to learn the technique. I got lazy over the years of using clips, but I could probably still haul a BMX (for example) into the air. Although, now I'm 16 1/2 stone as opposed to about 8 stone when I learned, I'm not sure I'd get a huge amount of height.
Using a bike with suspension will mean that you're using the suspension more than the correct technique.
Only a CX bike with pannier racks or a carbon road bike (both of which also have SPDs), so I guess I'll have to compromise and just work with the hardtail for now. I had made it consistently up a kerb without touching front or rear wheels yesterday, which is progress at least! That's the best way to learn the technique. I got lazy over the years of using clips, but I could probably still haul a BMX (for example) into the air. Although, now I'm 16 1/2 stone as opposed to about 8 stone when I learned, I'm not sure I'd get a huge amount of height.
Using a bike with suspension will mean that you're using the suspension more than the correct technique.
Next step is to get both wheels up at the same time...Max_Torque said:
The "trick" with bunny hops is working out that you effectively "lever" yourself into the air by using the chain stays!
wait... what?Max_Torque said:
you shouldn't be pulling the handlebars upwards as such, more just allowing the bike to bounce upwards
wait... what?Max_Torque said:
the bottom bracket has effectively lifted you upwards by your feet.
wait... what?Max_Torque said:
the rear wheel is busy bouncing off the floor, fires the bike into the air.
wait... what?There seems to be a whole lot of overcomplicating things going on in this thread.
I find that GMBN video with donny a bit misleading. He's trying to teach the harder kind of bunny hop and downplaying the importance of the very basic flat bunny hop (what he calls a spud hop).
at no point should you be relying on the bike rebounding off the ground to propel it upwards (where that is due to suspension rebound or tyre rebound); you get the bike off the ground by propelling yourself upward and making the bike follow suit by lifting it with your hands and feet.
Bunny hop is simple, shouldn't need a lecture as Deadtom says.
Flat bunny hop same as if you were standing and hopped, just do it on a bike. Two stage hop which is what I tend to do as you can clear much higher stuff, pull the front up, coast front over obstruction and throw weight forward as you do the same sort of hop as a flat bunny hop, higher the front when coasting the higher the rear will go.
Flat bunny hop same as if you were standing and hopped, just do it on a bike. Two stage hop which is what I tend to do as you can clear much higher stuff, pull the front up, coast front over obstruction and throw weight forward as you do the same sort of hop as a flat bunny hop, higher the front when coasting the higher the rear will go.
Herman Toothrot said:
Bunny hop is simple, shouldn't need a lecture as Deadtom says.
Flat bunny hop same as if you were standing and hopped, just do it on a bike. Two stage hop which is what I tend to do as you can clear much higher stuff, pull the front up, coast front over obstruction and throw weight forward as you do the same sort of hop as a flat bunny hop, higher the front when coasting the higher the rear will go.
You may well be right, but I still don't understand why I can get the front wheel up on one bike at the moment, and the rest I the other. Or, more to the point, what I do about it?Flat bunny hop same as if you were standing and hopped, just do it on a bike. Two stage hop which is what I tend to do as you can clear much higher stuff, pull the front up, coast front over obstruction and throw weight forward as you do the same sort of hop as a flat bunny hop, higher the front when coasting the higher the rear will go.
If geometry is really slack then you'll need to shift your body weight back more than a steeper angled bike to get the front up or if it's significantly heavier, slack and heavier usually go together. Much harder and bigger inputs needed for me to coast my downhill bike a near 40kg, long fork, slack head angle, long rear ended thing than my average 130mm forked hard tail.
Bikes made to do tricks are short steep and light i.e. BMX style geometry more you go away from that the harder it gets, you increase stability and decrease how nimble they are.
Bikes made to do tricks are short steep and light i.e. BMX style geometry more you go away from that the harder it gets, you increase stability and decrease how nimble they are.
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Monday 7th September 21:45
Take a look at the high jump world record (2.45m) which uses just a humans legs, verses the Pole Vault record (6.16m) which uses a "pole" as a lever!
This is why the proper "bunny hop" that uses the bike as a lever is so much more effective at gaining height. A "spud hop" can of course get you off the ground, but only to roughly 12" or so, and as you must lift both wheels at once, is useless for slow speed obstacle clearance!
Pumping the bike, then letting it rebound, and letting it rise and tilt upwards effectively levers the bottom bracket (where the riders weight is principally reacted) up into the air. With the bike at say 45deg upwards tilt, as the chain stays of a typical bike are 400mm long, then you are already over 10" off the floor even if you don't then thrust up and forwards, lifting the rear wheel.
In fact this "tall manual" is in itself very useful for clearing obstacles without even having to turn it into a bunny hop!
This is why the proper "bunny hop" that uses the bike as a lever is so much more effective at gaining height. A "spud hop" can of course get you off the ground, but only to roughly 12" or so, and as you must lift both wheels at once, is useless for slow speed obstacle clearance!
Pumping the bike, then letting it rebound, and letting it rise and tilt upwards effectively levers the bottom bracket (where the riders weight is principally reacted) up into the air. With the bike at say 45deg upwards tilt, as the chain stays of a typical bike are 400mm long, then you are already over 10" off the floor even if you don't then thrust up and forwards, lifting the rear wheel.
In fact this "tall manual" is in itself very useful for clearing obstacles without even having to turn it into a bunny hop!
Kermit power said:
Herman Toothrot said:
Bunny hop is simple, shouldn't need a lecture as Deadtom says.
Flat bunny hop same as if you were standing and hopped, just do it on a bike. Two stage hop which is what I tend to do as you can clear much higher stuff, pull the front up, coast front over obstruction and throw weight forward as you do the same sort of hop as a flat bunny hop, higher the front when coasting the higher the rear will go.
You may well be right, but I still don't understand why I can get the front wheel up on one bike at the moment, and the rest I the other. Or, more to the point, what I do about it?Flat bunny hop same as if you were standing and hopped, just do it on a bike. Two stage hop which is what I tend to do as you can clear much higher stuff, pull the front up, coast front over obstruction and throw weight forward as you do the same sort of hop as a flat bunny hop, higher the front when coasting the higher the rear will go.
Max_Torque said:
stuff
I see what you are saying, but I stand by my earlier assertion that this style of hop is the more advanced, and is not the best way to try and learn it.lifting the rear wheel off the ground with your feet is the hard part. The flat bunnyhop is the simplest and easiest stepping stone to get to that actually constitutes a legitimate bunnyhop (anything less is just the rider yanking the front wheel off the ground). Once you have the flat bunnyhop down, the rest will follow in time.
OP, I would find a mate who a) can bunnyhop and b) is patient enough to teach you how it's done. I always found with mountain bike skills that learning from someone better than you is by far the best way
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