overpaid in employment question
Discussion
Just looking for a bit of general advice on this one.
The OH works part time for a large nationalised organisation and currently does a lot of rotating shift work (mornings, afternoons and longer night shifts)
18 months ago she was informed by a superior that she was not completing enough hours and hadn't been for over a year since her shift patterns had changed. The discrepancy was small and around 5 - 10 hours a month and wasn't easy for her to spot.
The responsibility to ensure her shifts are sufficient for her contracted hours is her superiors. She was advised that she would have to pay the money back which seems reasonable however in the last 18 months her employer has failed to provide any proper account of how much is owed. Further she has still not had her shift hours increased to her contracted hours. She has called four meetings over the last 18 months to ask what is going on and despite promises to rectify the situation nothing has been done.
None of the meetings have been recorded by her employer but she is a compulsive diary writer (on everything) and each meeting was recorded by her within a day or so (who she saw, what was said etc).
I only became aware of the situation last weekend and as its now 30months and the overpay is thousands I am keen to see it resolved.
She has been advised to let it lie as her employers have had more than enough opportunities to sort this out and that lack of action will inevitably count in her favour. I would however like to know what the experiences in the PH community advise.
The OH works part time for a large nationalised organisation and currently does a lot of rotating shift work (mornings, afternoons and longer night shifts)
18 months ago she was informed by a superior that she was not completing enough hours and hadn't been for over a year since her shift patterns had changed. The discrepancy was small and around 5 - 10 hours a month and wasn't easy for her to spot.
The responsibility to ensure her shifts are sufficient for her contracted hours is her superiors. She was advised that she would have to pay the money back which seems reasonable however in the last 18 months her employer has failed to provide any proper account of how much is owed. Further she has still not had her shift hours increased to her contracted hours. She has called four meetings over the last 18 months to ask what is going on and despite promises to rectify the situation nothing has been done.
None of the meetings have been recorded by her employer but she is a compulsive diary writer (on everything) and each meeting was recorded by her within a day or so (who she saw, what was said etc).
I only became aware of the situation last weekend and as its now 30months and the overpay is thousands I am keen to see it resolved.
She has been advised to let it lie as her employers have had more than enough opportunities to sort this out and that lack of action will inevitably count in her favour. I would however like to know what the experiences in the PH community advise.
ant leigh said:
She has been advised to let it lie as her employers have had more than enough opportunities to sort this out and that lack of action will inevitably count in her favour. I would however like to know what the experiences in the PH community advise.
She's been advised right.If at the moment she's not actually been asked for the money, and she's got records of trying to solve the problem, but for the company to fail again, then why not let sleeping dogs lie?
If her contract is for 30 hours, and they've asked her to do 25 for example, she's not been 'overpaid' at all. They've just asked her to do less work than they could have done.
JustinP1 said:
She's been advised right.
If at the moment she's not actually been asked for the money, and she's got records of trying to solve the problem, but for the company to fail again, then why not let sleeping dogs lie?
If her contract is for 30 hours, and they've asked her to do 25 for example, she's not been 'overpaid' at all. They've just asked her to do less work than they could have done.
Actually that's a good take on the question and is actually closer to the mark than my OPIf at the moment she's not actually been asked for the money, and she's got records of trying to solve the problem, but for the company to fail again, then why not let sleeping dogs lie?
If her contract is for 30 hours, and they've asked her to do 25 for example, she's not been 'overpaid' at all. They've just asked her to do less work than they could have done.
She's been underworked not overpaid :-)
Foliage said:
In the short term has she not considered just turning up an hour early or leaving an hour late to make up the time, to nip the issue in the bud going forward? seems a bit remiss to me that she wouldn't try to remedy the situation in a common sense manner.
I understand what you mean but it doesn't work that way for her. Shift changes are organised and whilst she could hang around for longer (and often does to close issues out) there is no credit in terms of hours worked for that. She is only credited with the shift hours she is allocated.If they ask her to repay the money, tell her to reply with "see Keenan v Barclays, 2009".
That's all you need to know. They haven't got a legal leg to stand on as the case as you've described shows they've had ample opportunity to correct things but haven't.
That's all you need to know. They haven't got a legal leg to stand on as the case as you've described shows they've had ample opportunity to correct things but haven't.
Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Monday 7th September 16:19
ant leigh said:
She has been advised to let it lie as her employers have had more than enough opportunities to sort this out and that lack of action will inevitably count in her favour. I would however like to know what the experiences in the PH community advise.
.
Was she aware (or would a normal person have been aware) that she was being overpaid?.
If yes, did she immediately bring it to her employers attention?
If yes, and they didn't do anything then no leg to stand on.
If they deduct without consent it's --->grievance ---> ET for unlawful stoppage of wages.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
If they ask her to repay the money, tell her to reply with "see Keenan v Barclays, 2009".
That's all you need to know. They haven't got a legal leg to stand on as the case as you've described shows they've had ample opportunity to correct things but haven't.
Employment Tribunal are not binding on another tribunal or court thou, so cannot automatically be used in this case.That's all you need to know. They haven't got a legal leg to stand on as the case as you've described shows they've had ample opportunity to correct things but haven't.
So she was not requested to work the hours set out in her contract? But she was available to work for the firm? And despite raising the fact that she has been working fewer hours than contracted to, this has not been addressed nor has her salary been adjusted or her contract?
I would agree to leave it at this point, should the matter be raised again then you can look to see what steps you might need to take.
I would agree to leave it at this point, should the matter be raised again then you can look to see what steps you might need to take.
Is she annual salaried or contracted on an hourly rate?
I suspect the legalities of this issue have within that question.
I am not a lawyer, but logic suggests if her contract is £10 per hour, and she has been paid more than the hours she has done, then she is bound to pay it back. If it is for £10k p/a with 40 hours per week, then she has been paid correctly and they haven't used her enough.
I suspect the legalities of this issue have within that question.
I am not a lawyer, but logic suggests if her contract is £10 per hour, and she has been paid more than the hours she has done, then she is bound to pay it back. If it is for £10k p/a with 40 hours per week, then she has been paid correctly and they haven't used her enough.
She is contracted to 24 hours per week but fixed over a month. Therefore her hours are rarely exactly 24 in any 1 week. They should balance out over the month but as the hours per any shift vary (night shifts are longer hours than day shifts) it isn't a set number of shifts.
She also hates maths
so as long as the numbers looked broadly correct she simply trusted the system.
She has no problems in correcting the situation and offered to do more shifts to catch up the 'under' hours over a reasonable period of time its just she cant get any agreed action or even total costs from her employers.
BTW shift allocations are in theory automatic (with options for supervisors to 'swap' shifts) so unless someone in authority deals with the issue the problem wont correct itself.
She wants to avoid suddenly having a big bill shoved under her nose and told to 'pay now or else' as that would involve asking me for some money and she doesn't want to have to pay the quid pro quo in terms of new car for me
She also hates maths
so as long as the numbers looked broadly correct she simply trusted the system.She has no problems in correcting the situation and offered to do more shifts to catch up the 'under' hours over a reasonable period of time its just she cant get any agreed action or even total costs from her employers.
BTW shift allocations are in theory automatic (with options for supervisors to 'swap' shifts) so unless someone in authority deals with the issue the problem wont correct itself.
She wants to avoid suddenly having a big bill shoved under her nose and told to 'pay now or else' as that would involve asking me for some money and she doesn't want to have to pay the quid pro quo in terms of new car for me
I assume she is talking to HR not management ? If for whatever reason she hasn't been, talk to them.
I would suspect they do not have a means of calculating hours worked then ? Does she clock in/out - do they record hours worked ?
Organisations WILL attempt claw backs, though usually under a payment plan of what can be afforded, so that can be over a year.
She needs an honest conversation, with a HR individual, to say she wants to resolve this asap. If they don't know all the hours, what about an agreement for part of it and sorting it out from now on.
I would suspect they do not have a means of calculating hours worked then ? Does she clock in/out - do they record hours worked ?
Organisations WILL attempt claw backs, though usually under a payment plan of what can be afforded, so that can be over a year.
She needs an honest conversation, with a HR individual, to say she wants to resolve this asap. If they don't know all the hours, what about an agreement for part of it and sorting it out from now on.
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