CLUTCH LIFE EXPECTANCY
Discussion
Hi.
I realise it is a very hypothetical question but how long should a clutch last?
The gearbox in my car has a very slight noise on the !st motion shaft bearing and whilst I could live with it I would rather get it put right now.
As the car has only covered 27k should the clutch be changed at the same time? I'd rather not due to the extra cost at the moment, just wondered what you all thought?
Regards Chris.
I realise it is a very hypothetical question but how long should a clutch last?
The gearbox in my car has a very slight noise on the !st motion shaft bearing and whilst I could live with it I would rather get it put right now.
As the car has only covered 27k should the clutch be changed at the same time? I'd rather not due to the extra cost at the moment, just wondered what you all thought?
Regards Chris.
Well it very much depends on how the clutch has been treated all it's life, you may be able to confirm this for the period the car has been in your stewardship but what about any previous owners?
The clutch in my 4.0HC started to slip when you really explored the upper rev range, the car at this point had only competed approximately 35,000 miles.
When I removed the driven plate it actually had what looked like a good 10-20,000 miles of meat still on it, so why was it slipping?
Well over time and many heat cycles the clutch diaphragm spring on your pressure plate can go soft, this is exactly what happened on mine so even if the clutch has been respected all it's life and the driven plate is fine it can still need replacement.
A weakening of the diaphragm spring reduces clamping force and that's when slip can start, as soon as you get a tiny amount of slip your driven plate is on borrowed time. The clutch wears rapidly as it slips and that wear causes it to slip more further compounding the wear cycle, very soon what was a small slip at high RPMs becomes a clutch that slips on a hill.
It's also important to understand the softening of a clutch diaphragm spring has little to do with miles and more to do with age.
The answer to your question is "there is no reliable answer", there's just too many variables at play to guarantee you'll get another 5 - 10 or even 20,000 miles from your clutch.
The only things you can say with any certainty are:
Now consider how you'd feel if three months after putting the box back in you find our clutch is starting to slip.
Finally understand the feeling of security you'll feel knowing you replaced your clutch a fraction early because it gives you reassurance it's another job done for a long time to come and that you halved the total cost into the bargain.
Or you could just pull the clutch and very carefully inspect the driven plate and properly test the diaphragm spring pressure when you drop the box.
But personally, if it was me, I'd just bite the bullet and put a new AP 5.0 litre spec clutch in there from Powers Performance and have done with it.
"You save's your money, you takes your risks"
But I guess at the end of the day it all depends on how skint you are right now and what value you give to complete peace of mind?
The clutch in my 4.0HC started to slip when you really explored the upper rev range, the car at this point had only competed approximately 35,000 miles.
When I removed the driven plate it actually had what looked like a good 10-20,000 miles of meat still on it, so why was it slipping?
Well over time and many heat cycles the clutch diaphragm spring on your pressure plate can go soft, this is exactly what happened on mine so even if the clutch has been respected all it's life and the driven plate is fine it can still need replacement.
A weakening of the diaphragm spring reduces clamping force and that's when slip can start, as soon as you get a tiny amount of slip your driven plate is on borrowed time. The clutch wears rapidly as it slips and that wear causes it to slip more further compounding the wear cycle, very soon what was a small slip at high RPMs becomes a clutch that slips on a hill.
It's also important to understand the softening of a clutch diaphragm spring has little to do with miles and more to do with age.
The answer to your question is "there is no reliable answer", there's just too many variables at play to guarantee you'll get another 5 - 10 or even 20,000 miles from your clutch.
The only things you can say with any certainty are:
- Clutch diaphragm springs do go soft with age
- Your clutch has already given you reasonable service
- Your clutch (if original) is certainly no spring chicken
Now consider how you'd feel if three months after putting the box back in you find our clutch is starting to slip.
Finally understand the feeling of security you'll feel knowing you replaced your clutch a fraction early because it gives you reassurance it's another job done for a long time to come and that you halved the total cost into the bargain.
Or you could just pull the clutch and very carefully inspect the driven plate and properly test the diaphragm spring pressure when you drop the box.
But personally, if it was me, I'd just bite the bullet and put a new AP 5.0 litre spec clutch in there from Powers Performance and have done with it.
"You save's your money, you takes your risks"
But I guess at the end of the day it all depends on how skint you are right now and what value you give to complete peace of mind?
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 15th September 09:27
Excellent advice thankyou!
The car is new to me and I became aware of the bearing noise very quickly hence the gearbox out job to replace them. It is a year 2000 5.0ltr car which seems to have been cherished but, as you say you can never tell.
My gut instinct would normally be to change the clutch, it's just extra expense at the moment but no doubt I will see sense and do it!
What is the best clutch to fit then? TVR parts sell HELIX ones I think or do you have any best recommendations?
I'd hope it would last more than the 15K of the AP one.
Regards Chris.
The car is new to me and I became aware of the bearing noise very quickly hence the gearbox out job to replace them. It is a year 2000 5.0ltr car which seems to have been cherished but, as you say you can never tell.
My gut instinct would normally be to change the clutch, it's just extra expense at the moment but no doubt I will see sense and do it!
What is the best clutch to fit then? TVR parts sell HELIX ones I think or do you have any best recommendations?
I'd hope it would last more than the 15K of the AP one.
Regards Chris.
s3c chris said:
Excellent advice thankyou!
The car is new to me and I became aware of the bearing noise very quickly hence the gearbox out job to replace them. It is a year 2000 5.0ltr car which seems to have been cherished but, as you say you can never tell.
My gut instinct would normally be to change the clutch, it's just extra expense at the moment but no doubt I will see sense and do it!
What is the best clutch to fit then? TVR parts sell HELIX ones I think or do you have any best recommendations?
I'd hope it would last more than the 15K of the AP one.
Regards Chris.
Hi Chris,The car is new to me and I became aware of the bearing noise very quickly hence the gearbox out job to replace them. It is a year 2000 5.0ltr car which seems to have been cherished but, as you say you can never tell.
My gut instinct would normally be to change the clutch, it's just extra expense at the moment but no doubt I will see sense and do it!
What is the best clutch to fit then? TVR parts sell HELIX ones I think or do you have any best recommendations?
I'd hope it would last more than the 15K of the AP one.
Regards Chris.
I have a Helix clutch that came from V8 Developments, and my mate has a 1996 5.0 litre Chimaera that I drive from time to time and which uses the AP clutch.
Now before I give you my appraisal of the two units we need to understand my mate's 5.0 litre has only done around 30,000 miles without a hint of clutch slip even when bullied by over 300 torques.
But we must also consider it's the original AP unit, so its just coming up to 19 years old and as we know diaphragm springs can go soft or hard with age and or multiple heat cycles.
With all that in mind here's my comparison:
Bite point:
Helix - Very manageable but if I was being really fussy a little too close to the floor for curtain urban driving situations
AP - Nice, smooth and progressive engagement just where you want it to start in the pedal travel arc
Weight:
Helix - Quite heavy but not to the point I want to rip it out, I have no issues when pressing on or in town but extended periods of stop start traffic can become a little tiresome
AP - Nice, quite light really and actually lighter than my standard 4.0 litre spec clutch that may have gone hard with age.
The important thing we need to remember here is clutch feel/weight is a very subjective thing, one man's way too heavy is another man's nice & meaty.
The Helix is not an all out race or even track day clutch by any stretch, and it's not a feather light Nissan Micra thing either, I believe Helix also offer differ specs so you'll need to talk with V8 Developments to find out which one they sent me.
I know others have had a dreadful experience with what they desribe as their dabble with the short lived and horrendously heavy Helix clutches, perhaps they got the exra strong one where I god the basic uprated model. I don't really know TBH and can only speak for myself, but my experience with the Helix unit has generally been a good one.
One thing is for sure the Helix is definitely overkill for my 250hp 4.0 litre, but I chose it because I wanted to future proof the clutch element if I ever do fit that supercharger.
In many ways the Helix is actually a fantastic device, for instance when your pressing on at speed on a winding road and swapping cogs with a lightning flick of the wrist it's "closer to the floor" bite point and slightly narrower band of engagement travel works in your favor. And when your driving like that the last thing on your mind is clutch weight because it's all about stab the pedal hard and change a quickly as you can.
To me the Helix is a pretty good compromise and certainly grips like a limpet even when I'm spanking on or leaning on the torque up a steep incline, like I say I'm probably hardly even taxing it in my 250hp/260 Ft/lb 4.0 ltre Chimaera and it sure as hell feels like it could come with a stack more power.
But like I say the weight thing is subjective, for me it sits comfortably on the right edge of acceptable but others have different opinions.
For example when the guys at Lloyd Specialist Developments first drove the car with the Helix they called me to say they think my pressure plate had gone hard and I may want to consider a new clutch. Now the Lloyd team drive a lot of TVRs and certainly aren't the types to make up work in pursuit of additional profit, they genuinely felt it was wrong.
Then there's my other mate who's driven just about every super car, classic and everything in between. The first time I let him drive the car I asked what he felt about the clutch, and without hesitation he said this...
"That's proper, it's just as a clutch should be in a car like this, weighty but not too heavy, quick but easy to manage a hill start and traffic, ruddy perfect mate!"
So you see it's all very subjective, would I buy a Helix again or go AP?
Even now I'm not sure, but I think the additional lightness of the AP may just take it. Saying that and knowing me, as soon as I fit the AP I'll be reminiscing about my meaty and snappy change facilitating Helix.
The truth is there's actually not that much in them unless you're particular weak of limb, do an awful lot of town driving or let your wife take the Chim to work from time to time. The additional weight certainly isn't enough to warrant me undertaking another clutch swap, especially when my Helix will probably last another 50,000 miles if I treat it right.
I've tried my best to give you a fair appraisal of both clutches based on my real world experiences of both units, but others may have a completely different take on it. Indeed Lloyd Specialist Developments insist a standard off the shelf Rover V8 clutch from one of their trusted suppliers is very much all you need right up and over 300hp.
At the end of the day it's very much a case of personal preference, if you want to feel the weight of my Helix and you're coming to the Neil Garner open day on the 26th just swing by the Lloyd Specialist Development stand and I'll be happy to let you try it, at the same time I'm sure someone with an AP clutch will let you try theirs for a proper comparison.
To be honest that's the only real way you know which one is best for you.
Drive in a mechanically sympathetic way as you really should in a TVR. Matching engine speed when engaging clutch especially when changing down the box. There is no reason to slip the clutch at any time other than from stationary. I've always driven my car hard and done many trackdays. Still on its original clutch at 61k miles.
This reads as though people aren't raising engine speed prior to engaging change down. These engines have high torque, you risk locking the rear wheels if you let the clutch take up differencial drive rotation
This reads as though people aren't raising engine speed prior to engaging change down. These engines have high torque, you risk locking the rear wheels if you let the clutch take up differencial drive rotation
Gosh! That was a ver y comprehensive answer, thankyou.
This is the problem...
I had a new clutch in my old 400. It was an AP one from TVR power and it was far heavier than that in the 500 I now have. I assume this is the original due to the mileage and it has a very smooth action compared to the last one. I actually prefer this and in some ways am reluctant to change it.
I know I could regret it though. At least I have a few days to think it over!
Racetech have Borg and Beck clutches on offer at the moment but I'm not sure if they are correct for the 500 as I'm led to believe they were uprated.
Thanks again, Chris.
This is the problem...
I had a new clutch in my old 400. It was an AP one from TVR power and it was far heavier than that in the 500 I now have. I assume this is the original due to the mileage and it has a very smooth action compared to the last one. I actually prefer this and in some ways am reluctant to change it.
I know I could regret it though. At least I have a few days to think it over!
Racetech have Borg and Beck clutches on offer at the moment but I'm not sure if they are correct for the 500 as I'm led to believe they were uprated.
Thanks again, Chris.
bobfather said:
This reads as though people aren't raising engine speed prior to engaging change down. These engines have high torque, you risk locking the rear wheels if you let the clutch take up differencial drive rotation
Hey, I'm no "people", I am a heel & toer 
I suspect drag days are the killer, another few hundredths of a second and I'll be down in the 11's………
Agreed, good driving practise is the key!
Years ago my old boss PXed his Sierra, (bought new) with 120K miles on it. Original everything on it.
He took pride in his driving,…………….
phazed said:
Hey, I'm no "people", I am a heel & toer
I suspect drag days are the killer, another few hundredths of a second and I'll be down in the 11's………
Agreed, good driving practise is the key!
Years ago my old boss PXed his Sierra, (bought new) with 120K miles on it. Original everything on it.
He took pride in his driving,…………….
This ^ Its like asking how long is a piece of string? I sold a Turbo Diesel workhorse some time ago with 160+k on a OE clutch I fitted over a 7 year period that was still going strong on sale I suspect drag days are the killer, another few hundredths of a second and I'll be down in the 11's………
Agreed, good driving practise is the key!
Years ago my old boss PXed his Sierra, (bought new) with 120K miles on it. Original everything on it.
He took pride in his driving,…………….
however I would not expect anything like this with the Tiv 
unless your a tosser who rides the clutch around pulling away in 2nd and all that b
ks then like Pter says the drag starts are the killer IMO well and Peters 
If the gearbox is out for repairs its a no brainer not to replace the clutch, my 4.6 had 53k on the original when I stripped it and looked quite reasonable but its just not worth messing about
My replacement was an AP when the respected TVR dealer was asked about the helix range he said he had stopped selling them due to problems???
If its of any help the cover part no is CP2345-4 the plate no is CP2346-4 AP range for a 4.6 I assume this is the same for the 5lt, you maybe able to source from a cheaper supplier not inc the TVR tax
regards
Rich
My replacement was an AP when the respected TVR dealer was asked about the helix range he said he had stopped selling them due to problems???
If its of any help the cover part no is CP2345-4 the plate no is CP2346-4 AP range for a 4.6 I assume this is the same for the 5lt, you maybe able to source from a cheaper supplier not inc the TVR tax
regards
Rich
Decision made!!!
I have thought about this one and despite the 27k of the car have decided to go for a new clutch whilst the box is out after all. New AP racing clutch ordered from TVR Power today, only £450.......
As pointed out though at least there will be piece of mind knowing the job has been done and as I intend to keep the car I suppose it makes sense. Thanks for the advice on this one. I just hope the new one is as light as the existing one.
Incidentally I phoned Borg and Beck technical department after seeing the one at Racetech and was told they do not make one for the 500 and only list it for the 400.
Now where did the melted credit card disappear to?
Regards Chris
I have thought about this one and despite the 27k of the car have decided to go for a new clutch whilst the box is out after all. New AP racing clutch ordered from TVR Power today, only £450.......
As pointed out though at least there will be piece of mind knowing the job has been done and as I intend to keep the car I suppose it makes sense. Thanks for the advice on this one. I just hope the new one is as light as the existing one.
Incidentally I phoned Borg and Beck technical department after seeing the one at Racetech and was told they do not make one for the 500 and only list it for the 400.
Now where did the melted credit card disappear to?
Regards Chris
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