Dangerously repaired mountain bike. Legal status.
Discussion
In another forum, I’ve been chatting to a guy re the purchase of a damaged mountain bike. As a qualified engineer of +50yrs experience, I’ve sussed out what needs to be done to make a SAFE repair. It’s only because of the facilities available to ME that it can be done economically, if you had to pay the full market cost, it’s prohibitive. The guy selling the bike to me says his mate, who works in a tyre garage, says he can weld it up for him for £10! So, obviously, the guy thinks I’m stitching him up for a big knock down on the frame price. I’ve warned him that if he repairs it, flogs to another, who then has a bad crash when it fails again, that he could be in big trouble legally. Putting it bluntly, it could kill someone. Can any of the legal guys here put me in the picture of the consequences of selling something you repaired badly, through complete ignorance of the knowledge needed to make a safe repair. I realise that what is actually written in the ad, and any subsequent chat between parties could influence this.
What type of mtb is it, a proper one you can use offroad and jump or a Tesco bike shaped object? tbh I can't see any non titanium frame being worth much unless it comes with decent suspension included.
I doubt there would be any legal recourse with a second hand bike. Sold as seen I would have thought, especially in the era of carbon frames which can be written off simply by the chain coming off.
I doubt there would be any legal recourse with a second hand bike. Sold as seen I would have thought, especially in the era of carbon frames which can be written off simply by the chain coming off.
No idea as to legalities, but welding steel on a bike frame is a big no no. The heat will damage the tubings properties, and while the repair will probably hold, the steel either side will be seriously weakened.
Steel bike frames are brazed at the joints, a lot lower temperature than a weld.
OP hasn't said what the frame material is, but I'm guessing it is steel, welding aluminium can be done, but a bit more specialised than steel and I've no idea of the techniques used.
Steel bike frames are brazed at the joints, a lot lower temperature than a weld.
OP hasn't said what the frame material is, but I'm guessing it is steel, welding aluminium can be done, but a bit more specialised than steel and I've no idea of the techniques used.
Edited by Slidingpillar on Friday 18th September 10:58
This repair is to the head bearing. The original cracked, and a piece snapped off. If this happens again due to the poor repair, it could kill the rider, if he's going fast, and head butts a tree. Thus, has the guy who badly repaired it subject to any legal repercussions if this happens?
Edited by robinessex on Friday 18th September 11:14
IANAL but I would be astonished that buying a second hand, repaired MTB gives you any legal comeback whatsoever.
Certainly it wouldn't cross my mind to sue if I fell off because of it.
I mean just think of the burden of proof... how on earth would you show that it was the repair at fault rather than the abuse the new owner had given it???
I think you are making a mountain out of a slight incline.
Certainly it wouldn't cross my mind to sue if I fell off because of it.
I mean just think of the burden of proof... how on earth would you show that it was the repair at fault rather than the abuse the new owner had given it???
I think you are making a mountain out of a slight incline.
I suppose Gross Negligence Manslaughter would be the ultimate if someone died.
Whether it would even get that far, never mind stick, is another matter.
The seller and/or repairer could be sued for civil negligence, but all sorts of issues there, not the least of which is they might not have any money.
Whether it would even get that far, never mind stick, is another matter.
The seller and/or repairer could be sued for civil negligence, but all sorts of issues there, not the least of which is they might not have any money.
robinessex said:
This repair is to the head bearing. The original cracked, and a piece snapped off. If this happens again due to the poor repair, it could kill the rider, if he's going fast, and head butts a tree. Thus, has the guy who badly repaired it subject to any legal repercussions if this happens?
Remove head bearing, sell as incomplete bike for repairs / upgrade?There are extensive rules about liability for products, but these rules bear mainly on manufacturers and commercials sellers of goods. Hence the claims against manufacturers of airliners and cars when they go explodey.
If someone undertakes a repair of an item in the course of a business, that person is obliged to exercise reasonable skill and care in doing so. Failure to do so could result in liability if, and this is a big if, it could be proven on the balance of probabilities that the want of skill and care caused a fatal accident.
Note that in no circumstances can liability for causing death or injury be excluded, regardless of any agreement between the parties. This is true whether the seller or repairer of an item is acting in the course of a business or not. Note again however that liability for causing the incident must be proven.
Assume that the repairer acts without reward. He or she may still be liable for a negligent repair, if this causes harm.
The practice of some skills is regulated. Take for example medicine, law, flying, lorry driving, and various types of engineering. There are safety rules about operating welding equipment, but those are mainly concerned with safe working practices and safe work spaces. I am not aware of any regulatory code that governs people fixing bikes. There might be one, but if there is I don't know about it.
If someone undertakes a repair of an item in the course of a business, that person is obliged to exercise reasonable skill and care in doing so. Failure to do so could result in liability if, and this is a big if, it could be proven on the balance of probabilities that the want of skill and care caused a fatal accident.
Note that in no circumstances can liability for causing death or injury be excluded, regardless of any agreement between the parties. This is true whether the seller or repairer of an item is acting in the course of a business or not. Note again however that liability for causing the incident must be proven.
Assume that the repairer acts without reward. He or she may still be liable for a negligent repair, if this causes harm.
The practice of some skills is regulated. Take for example medicine, law, flying, lorry driving, and various types of engineering. There are safety rules about operating welding equipment, but those are mainly concerned with safe working practices and safe work spaces. I am not aware of any regulatory code that governs people fixing bikes. There might be one, but if there is I don't know about it.
I don't understand why this question is even being asked. If you know you are right, then you are suitably qualified to confirm it.
If he doesn't want to sell at the knockdown price - then move on. What on earth is telling him "You are wrong, I'm an expert" going to do to assist in the matter? Let alone start going all legal on him for something which you are making an offer on? What are you trying to do? Bully him into selling it to you and you only?
What are you hoping to achieve? It's not your problem & at some point down the line it is still, not going to be your problem?
If he doesn't want to sell at the knockdown price - then move on. What on earth is telling him "You are wrong, I'm an expert" going to do to assist in the matter? Let alone start going all legal on him for something which you are making an offer on? What are you trying to do? Bully him into selling it to you and you only?
What are you hoping to achieve? It's not your problem & at some point down the line it is still, not going to be your problem?
Rtype said:
I don't understand why this question is even being asked. If you know you are right, then you are suitably qualified to confirm it.
If he doesn't want to sell at the knockdown price - then move on. What on earth is telling him "You are wrong, I'm an expert" going to do to assist in the matter? Let alone start going all legal on him for something which you are making an offer on? What are you trying to do? Bully him into selling it to you and you only?
What are you hoping to achieve? It's not your problem & at some point down the line it is still, not going to be your problem?
Glad its not just me...If he doesn't want to sell at the knockdown price - then move on. What on earth is telling him "You are wrong, I'm an expert" going to do to assist in the matter? Let alone start going all legal on him for something which you are making an offer on? What are you trying to do? Bully him into selling it to you and you only?
What are you hoping to achieve? It's not your problem & at some point down the line it is still, not going to be your problem?
Greendubber said:
Rtype said:
I don't understand why this question is even being asked. If you know you are right, then you are suitably qualified to confirm it.
If he doesn't want to sell at the knockdown price - then move on. What on earth is telling him "You are wrong, I'm an expert" going to do to assist in the matter? Let alone start going all legal on him for something which you are making an offer on? What are you trying to do? Bully him into selling it to you and you only?
What are you hoping to achieve? It's not your problem & at some point down the line it is still, not going to be your problem?
Glad its not just me...If he doesn't want to sell at the knockdown price - then move on. What on earth is telling him "You are wrong, I'm an expert" going to do to assist in the matter? Let alone start going all legal on him for something which you are making an offer on? What are you trying to do? Bully him into selling it to you and you only?
What are you hoping to achieve? It's not your problem & at some point down the line it is still, not going to be your problem?
made me laughwalm said:
Rtype said:
I don't understand why this question is even being asked...
...What are you trying to do? Bully him into selling it to you and you only?
Perhaps "bully" is harsh but otherwise accurate I would say....What are you trying to do? Bully him into selling it to you and you only?
- Op is telling Seller he is an "Engineer" and "Knows how much these things cost"
- Seller informs op, his mate can weld it for £10, so Jog on, no hefty discount for you
- Op gets upset, tells seller, he is going to be liable for potential manslaughter if he lets his mate "Patch it" as he is not either a) Op or B) an "Engineer"
- Because of this, op goes to another forum to confirm his Knowledge.
- I presume follow up is Op informs seller, he is going to jail for indirectly killing someone.
I'm actually having a little laugh to myself still about this topic!! It is clearly an attempt of intimidation otherwise why would Op feel the need to start asking questions about legalities?
Final point from me: LOL
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