Leaking fuel pipes - again
Discussion
Seems to come up on here quite a bit, in fact it was one of the reasons I ended up doing a body off resto. I'd never had a problem with them leaking before but they were of course all replaced during the rebuild. I bought the new pipes some five years ago now (when I was only planning to do a quick partial body lift) but as thinks took some what longer than planned they had only done about 1000 miles since actually getting the Cerb running again when I smelt a very strong smell of petrol round by the back wheel.
On closer inspection I found petrol looking to be leaking from the crimped on banjo connection on the top of the fuel filter. All the other new pipes have a rubber outer so you can see the condition of the pipe but for these two at the back I had to send off my old banjos so the new hose could be crimped on, they came back with a material braiding on. As I was wrestling the filter & pipes out the pipe pulled off the fitting it was so weak & once the braiding was pulled back I could see how badly the pipes was cracked from going hard. These were new pipes 5 years ago from a leading fuel pipe firm. Some time after I had bought all the new pipes I read in Sprint about the ethanol content in fuel attacking rubber pipes so I rang the TVR parts people who had sent them off for me & they said with would be fine back then. But I've just rung them again & they now say they've been hearing of this a lot more recently
I see the new replacement pipes come with the stainless braiding over them & new banjos, bling were you don't need it & no way of seeing the pipe again!
On closer inspection I found petrol looking to be leaking from the crimped on banjo connection on the top of the fuel filter. All the other new pipes have a rubber outer so you can see the condition of the pipe but for these two at the back I had to send off my old banjos so the new hose could be crimped on, they came back with a material braiding on. As I was wrestling the filter & pipes out the pipe pulled off the fitting it was so weak & once the braiding was pulled back I could see how badly the pipes was cracked from going hard. These were new pipes 5 years ago from a leading fuel pipe firm. Some time after I had bought all the new pipes I read in Sprint about the ethanol content in fuel attacking rubber pipes so I rang the TVR parts people who had sent them off for me & they said with would be fine back then. But I've just rung them again & they now say they've been hearing of this a lot more recently
I see the new replacement pipes come with the stainless braiding over them & new banjos, bling were you don't need it & no way of seeing the pipe again!
Sounds like you've been lucky........There have been several cases of Cerbs turning into bonfires.
I replaced all my engine bay fuel hoses with the over-braided PTFE type as it is claimed that PTFE is far more able to cope with today's fuels as it doesn't react and degrade in the same way that rubber does. I've got some time on my hands at the minute so I'll take some pictures and create a shopping list of parts so folk can follow suit should they wish.
I can't remember the price I paid for all the parts from Torques Products but I'm very pleased with the end result. Over winter I'll be doing the same replacement job in and around the tank / wheel arch, etc.
Ian
I replaced all my engine bay fuel hoses with the over-braided PTFE type as it is claimed that PTFE is far more able to cope with today's fuels as it doesn't react and degrade in the same way that rubber does. I've got some time on my hands at the minute so I'll take some pictures and create a shopping list of parts so folk can follow suit should they wish.
I can't remember the price I paid for all the parts from Torques Products but I'm very pleased with the end result. Over winter I'll be doing the same replacement job in and around the tank / wheel arch, etc.
Ian
billybradshaw said:
Sounds like you've been lucky........There have been several cases of Cerbs turning into bonfires.
I replaced all my engine bay fuel hoses with the over-braided PTFE type as it is claimed that PTFE is far more able to cope with today's fuels as it doesn't react and degrade in the same way that rubber does. I've got some time on my hands at the minute so I'll take some pictures and create a shopping list of parts so folk can follow suit should they wish.
I can't remember the price I paid for all the parts from Torques Products but I'm very pleased with the end result. Over winter I'll be doing the same replacement job in and around the tank / wheel arch, etc.
Ian
I also would be interested in this, I am part way through a body off restoI replaced all my engine bay fuel hoses with the over-braided PTFE type as it is claimed that PTFE is far more able to cope with today's fuels as it doesn't react and degrade in the same way that rubber does. I've got some time on my hands at the minute so I'll take some pictures and create a shopping list of parts so folk can follow suit should they wish.
I can't remember the price I paid for all the parts from Torques Products but I'm very pleased with the end result. Over winter I'll be doing the same replacement job in and around the tank / wheel arch, etc.
Ian
billybradshaw said:
Sounds like you've been lucky........There have been several cases of Cerbs turning into bonfires.
I replaced all my engine bay fuel hoses with the over-braided PTFE type as it is claimed that PTFE is far more able to cope with today's fuels as it doesn't react and degrade in the same way that rubber does. I've got some time on my hands at the minute so I'll take some pictures and create a shopping list of parts so folk can follow suit should they wish.
I can't remember the price I paid for all the parts from Torques Products but I'm very pleased with the end result. Over winter I'll be doing the same replacement job in and around the tank / wheel arch, etc.
Ian
Yes I think I was rather, it's still quite close to the exhaust back there but not as bad as those ones that go over the manifolds in the front. I replaced all my engine bay fuel hoses with the over-braided PTFE type as it is claimed that PTFE is far more able to cope with today's fuels as it doesn't react and degrade in the same way that rubber does. I've got some time on my hands at the minute so I'll take some pictures and create a shopping list of parts so folk can follow suit should they wish.
I can't remember the price I paid for all the parts from Torques Products but I'm very pleased with the end result. Over winter I'll be doing the same replacement job in and around the tank / wheel arch, etc.
Ian
I'll have to have a look at Torques Products, it's the banjos that are the problem at the rear. I think really it would be fine to cut off the old crimped on pipes & just use a fuel hose clamp on some of that new pipe on the old fittings. There is a nice barb on the end of them to help hold them. On the fuel cooler in the front I don't think there was any barb & the pipes are only held on with clamps there, though seems to vary a bit if that's in the feed or return line. The pressure regulator is only held on with clamps too so I'm sure they will be fine for the back. The only problem is my old banjos were quite badly rusted so it took me ages to get the mating surface clean enough to seal again, I'd done the nut up so tight that I snapped the old one trying to get it off.
But I've just spotted these on ebay. The filter is (I think) M14, so two of those, & one M12 for the fuel pump both need the 7mm pipe. If you're reading this after that link has stopped just stick "fuel pipe banjo" into the ebay search, for me it came up with new banjos, banjo bolts & even a nut for the bosch pump, all much less than the TVR parts places.
The only problem is the fitting to the hard pipe that runs down the car. I'm told by all the TVR parts people that is only on Cerbs, the fuel hose sold by the official new TVR parts place only has a hose clamp to fit to your old fitting there anyway. The other parts people simply don't sell that pipe.
So I think I may go with those banjos & either that PTFE pipe or some SAEJ30R9 rubber pipe, that stuff says it's for "Gasoline, ethanol extended gasoline, oxidized sour gas, diesel fuel,
biodiesel, lubrication oil" maybe this only from that add it can't seem to decide if it's R7 or R9, I've mailed them to ask. My other pipe at the front is R6, that stuff is rather vague as to running fuel containing ethanol it only says maybe! I think R7 was ok, R9 is better.
The other pipe I had on the back that sprung the leak was different it had some DIN number on it, I looked it up before fitting & it seemed to say it was ok, but it clearly wasn't. The R6 I've got in the front seems to be ok, but I'll be keeping a close eye on it.
That's good info about the parts needed at the back, thank you for that.
In terms of the hard lines running the length of the car then these are 8mm, you can get hard line adapters (AN6) which are compression fittings using an olive. Remove the old fittings, clean up the pipe and install the adapter. Connect to this using the appropriate end fitting and hose of your choice. I used this method on the feed / return pipes and also the fuel cooler in the engine bay.
When I've finished watching the rugby I'll go out and jot down all the parts needed for the engine bay.
Ian
In terms of the hard lines running the length of the car then these are 8mm, you can get hard line adapters (AN6) which are compression fittings using an olive. Remove the old fittings, clean up the pipe and install the adapter. Connect to this using the appropriate end fitting and hose of your choice. I used this method on the feed / return pipes and also the fuel cooler in the engine bay.
When I've finished watching the rugby I'll go out and jot down all the parts needed for the engine bay.
Ian
I had a look at all their stuff seems very nice, bit pricey for my tastes though 
I've just ordered everything for the rear end high pressure pipes, less the hard pipe fitting (as I'd already had mine off, cleaned it up & painted it) I just cut the crimped pipe off leaving the compression fitting still on the hard pipe. Those hard line fittings you mentioned look like they could be very useful to some others though.
All new Banjos, Banjo bolts, R9 rubber pipe, stainless hose clamps & nut for the pump came to £31.53 the cost of one new braided pipe from the TVR parts people.
The Banjo bolts I've ordered are 14mm x 1.5 (M14) Metric as far as I can measure I think that's right, but will report back if that's wrong.
I've just ordered everything for the rear end high pressure pipes, less the hard pipe fitting (as I'd already had mine off, cleaned it up & painted it) I just cut the crimped pipe off leaving the compression fitting still on the hard pipe. Those hard line fittings you mentioned look like they could be very useful to some others though.
All new Banjos, Banjo bolts, R9 rubber pipe, stainless hose clamps & nut for the pump came to £31.53 the cost of one new braided pipe from the TVR parts people.
The Banjo bolts I've ordered are 14mm x 1.5 (M14) Metric as far as I can measure I think that's right, but will report back if that's wrong.
OK so here goes, a shopping list for those of you wishing to replace all fuel hoses in the engine bay. Please note that this is based on a 1998 4.2 AJP engine.
All parts were sourced from Torques Products and they can be found on Ebay.
AN -6 (8mm) 5/16" Stainless Braided PTFE Fuel Hose 4m
You'll have more than enough with this amount, gives you a bit of breathing space if you cock up a measurement / cut)
AN -6 (AN6) STRAIGHT Male To 5/16" (8mm) Tube Adapter 4 off
These are used on the feed / return hard-lines which on my car hide under the expansion tank. They are also used on the fuel cooler.
AN -6 (AN6) STRAIGHT Teflon Fuel Hose Fitting 4 off
These are used on the hoses that connect to the hard-line adaptors
AN -6 (6AN JIC -06) to 1/2" BSP BSPP Straight Adapter 1 off
This part screws into the fuel rail, be sure to replace the sealing washer or refresh the old one by heating it with a blow torch to soften it.
AN -6 (AN6) 90 Degree Teflon Hose Fitting Aeroquip Type 1 off
This part screws onto the adaptor listed above.
Jubilee clip / hose finisher 1 off
This is used on the pressure regulator. I would have preferred to use an adaptor on this but the spigot isn't long enough.
I think that's it for the shopping list. I estimate it costing approx. £120
The job overall is pretty straight forward, measure twice and cut once, etc. I found the hardest part to be the removal of the original hard-line fittings under the expansion tank. Access is fairly limited even with tank removed. I cut the olive off (using a hack saw blade) followed by the smallest amount of distorted tube I could get away with. You need to remove the distorted tube in order to provide a fresh surface for the new olive to work upon. You absolutely must not cut too much off, if you do there won't be sufficient length remaining to accept the new hard-line adaptor. Make sure all cuts are de-burred and clean any crap out of the remaining tube.
Removing the beads off the fuel cooler is easy enough, again just make sure you remove the absolute minimum of length. De-burr the cut ends and blast compressed air through the cooler to make sure there is no crap lurking.
Before starting work I depressurised the fuel system by starting the engine and then removed the fuel pump fuse. When I cracked open the fitting on the fuel rail there was quite a lot of fuel remaining in the rail so be prepared with lots of rags.
I can't think of any other hints and tips at this time except:
PLEASE ENSURE YOU DO THIS JOB WITH A COLD ENGINE
HTH
Ian
All parts were sourced from Torques Products and they can be found on Ebay.
AN -6 (8mm) 5/16" Stainless Braided PTFE Fuel Hose 4m
You'll have more than enough with this amount, gives you a bit of breathing space if you cock up a measurement / cut)
AN -6 (AN6) STRAIGHT Male To 5/16" (8mm) Tube Adapter 4 off
These are used on the feed / return hard-lines which on my car hide under the expansion tank. They are also used on the fuel cooler.
AN -6 (AN6) STRAIGHT Teflon Fuel Hose Fitting 4 off
These are used on the hoses that connect to the hard-line adaptors
AN -6 (6AN JIC -06) to 1/2" BSP BSPP Straight Adapter 1 off
This part screws into the fuel rail, be sure to replace the sealing washer or refresh the old one by heating it with a blow torch to soften it.
AN -6 (AN6) 90 Degree Teflon Hose Fitting Aeroquip Type 1 off
This part screws onto the adaptor listed above.
Jubilee clip / hose finisher 1 off
This is used on the pressure regulator. I would have preferred to use an adaptor on this but the spigot isn't long enough.
I think that's it for the shopping list. I estimate it costing approx. £120
The job overall is pretty straight forward, measure twice and cut once, etc. I found the hardest part to be the removal of the original hard-line fittings under the expansion tank. Access is fairly limited even with tank removed. I cut the olive off (using a hack saw blade) followed by the smallest amount of distorted tube I could get away with. You need to remove the distorted tube in order to provide a fresh surface for the new olive to work upon. You absolutely must not cut too much off, if you do there won't be sufficient length remaining to accept the new hard-line adaptor. Make sure all cuts are de-burred and clean any crap out of the remaining tube.
Removing the beads off the fuel cooler is easy enough, again just make sure you remove the absolute minimum of length. De-burr the cut ends and blast compressed air through the cooler to make sure there is no crap lurking.
Before starting work I depressurised the fuel system by starting the engine and then removed the fuel pump fuse. When I cracked open the fitting on the fuel rail there was quite a lot of fuel remaining in the rail so be prepared with lots of rags.
I can't think of any other hints and tips at this time except:
PLEASE ENSURE YOU DO THIS JOB WITH A COLD ENGINE
HTH
Ian
Jonbouy said:
Some great info there, will plan to do mine now. Need some pictures of the finished product
I've got some pictures but the battery died on the camera and my other half has taken the charger to work.....I'll sort something this weekend for you though, no problem.Cheers
Ian
This picture shows the connections to the fuel cooler.
This pic shows the 90 degree elbow that I used for connecting to the 1/2" BSP adaptor on the fuel rail
This picture shows the feed and return pipes that lurk under the expansion tank. You can see that access is limited and I can't stress enough how important it is to ensure that you will have a sufficient length of pipe remaining in order to fit the new coupling. Also, be sure to remember / identify which pipe is the feed and which is return.
Not much cop this picture as it doesn't show a lot of detail, you can pick out the main hose runs though.
You'll have noticed that I elected to use a heat shield over some areas of the hose. Probably a bit OTT but if it helps to prevent the fuel from being heated then great.
HTH
Ian
All my bits for the rear have turned up & are a perfect fit, so what I said above is correct!
Just after I'd ordered all my bits Racetech got back to me to say the one pipe they sell is a PTFE one, I didn't ask the new TVR parts people what the two they have were made from, I'm more than happy with my R9 rubber in the back there.
Ian - they do look good in the engine bay though & if you can get all that lot for £120 it's very good value, from just glancing it looked like it would all add up to a lot more. It was a long time ago when I did mine (before I did the body off rebuild) but I'm fairly sure I had to take all the old pipes off & send them off to Racetech who had the new rubber pipes crimped on for me then sent them back to me. It cost a lot more than just rubber pipe! So getting all new bits ready to put on with no waiting is much better. That was over 5 years ago, so Racetech may well have something else to offer now.
Just after I'd ordered all my bits Racetech got back to me to say the one pipe they sell is a PTFE one, I didn't ask the new TVR parts people what the two they have were made from, I'm more than happy with my R9 rubber in the back there.
Ian - they do look good in the engine bay though & if you can get all that lot for £120 it's very good value, from just glancing it looked like it would all add up to a lot more. It was a long time ago when I did mine (before I did the body off rebuild) but I'm fairly sure I had to take all the old pipes off & send them off to Racetech who had the new rubber pipes crimped on for me then sent them back to me. It cost a lot more than just rubber pipe! So getting all new bits ready to put on with no waiting is much better. That was over 5 years ago, so Racetech may well have something else to offer now.
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