What's the limit?
Discussion
This may well be a modified version of the "different speed limits in opposite directions" issue that has been aired here before, but I make no apologies for raising it as it riases some important (and different) issues.
A section (around 1 mile) of a B road local to me has a 40mph limit. However, many of the 40 repeater signs are missing ... on one side of the road only. There is no obvious evidence that they have ever been there (except for one forlorn post with no roundel). there is a starter sign followed by some repeaters, then the 1 mile gap, then some repeater signs before a new (30 with repeater signs) limit starts.
Now, it is my understanding that if the road is improperly signed, the posted limit does not apply.
The situation I describe begs some questions:
1) Is the actual limit (in the 'gap') NSL or that of the preceeding limit (30, effected by being a BUA)?
2) If the limit is NSL, does that apply also to the reverse stretch where it is signed in accordance (it appears) with the regulations?
3) Between which points does the 'other' limit apply:
a) from the end of the previously posted limit to the start of the next posted limit?
b) from the point of the last repeater to the point of the next repeater?
c) from some specific point after the last repeater to some specific point before the next repeater?
d) other (if so, please expand)?
Now, before anyone asks, I haven't been booked for speeding along this road, neither do I know anyone who has. I drove along it several times two weeks ago and noticed the irregularity.
Streaky
PS - many thanks to all those who sent good wishes during my recent illness.
PPS - to those who joined this forum during my absence ... you'll get to know me!
A section (around 1 mile) of a B road local to me has a 40mph limit. However, many of the 40 repeater signs are missing ... on one side of the road only. There is no obvious evidence that they have ever been there (except for one forlorn post with no roundel). there is a starter sign followed by some repeaters, then the 1 mile gap, then some repeater signs before a new (30 with repeater signs) limit starts.
Now, it is my understanding that if the road is improperly signed, the posted limit does not apply.
The situation I describe begs some questions:
1) Is the actual limit (in the 'gap') NSL or that of the preceeding limit (30, effected by being a BUA)?
2) If the limit is NSL, does that apply also to the reverse stretch where it is signed in accordance (it appears) with the regulations?
3) Between which points does the 'other' limit apply:
a) from the end of the previously posted limit to the start of the next posted limit?
b) from the point of the last repeater to the point of the next repeater?
c) from some specific point after the last repeater to some specific point before the next repeater?
d) other (if so, please expand)?
Now, before anyone asks, I haven't been booked for speeding along this road, neither do I know anyone who has. I drove along it several times two weeks ago and noticed the irregularity.
Streaky
PS - many thanks to all those who sent good wishes during my recent illness.
PPS - to those who joined this forum during my absence ... you'll get to know me!
the answer is the council were funning towards the end of the financial year and needed to use up some spare cash, hence the opposite side of the road has signs. now your police mate from down the pub will say, 40, yet the cont behind the bush with the speed gun will say 30. the courts sort it out, but you`ll have to front up the money for solicitors till the truth is founded.
Don`t worry till it happens.
Don`t worry till it happens.
Speed limit of 40 mph on a road (unlit) is made under the authority of Section 84(1) Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. This Order will set out the precise section/distance of road involved.
Under Direction 9 and 10 Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002 there is a requirement for the start to be marked with a 40 sign and termination with the NSL sign ,or lower if entering a 30 mph restriction.
Direction 11 of the TSGD also states that speed repeater signs shall be erected at "regular intervals" within the limit but not on a road on which there is provided a system of carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity placed not more than 183 metres apart in England and Wales or not more than 185 metres apart in Scotland and which is subject to a speed limit of 30 mph; or a motorway on which a national speed limit is in force.
The term "Regular Intervals" is not defined under the Directions but spacing is mentioned in guidance to Local Authorities in a Traffic Advisory leaflet 1/95 on recommended distances which appear to have been breached in what has been said.
So the outcome of this in the absence of the repeaters there has been a clear breach of Direction 11 so the 40 cannot be enforced. Without street lights it appears the road reverts to a NSL.
Coming to the 30 on an unlit road, again an Order should have been made under Section 84(1) RTRA. Because of the fact unlit and therefore not a "restricted road" then it too has to be signed at the start and have repeaters.
Where street lights start in a 30 different rules apply.
You going to advise the LA Streaky?
DVD
Under Direction 9 and 10 Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002 there is a requirement for the start to be marked with a 40 sign and termination with the NSL sign ,or lower if entering a 30 mph restriction.
Direction 11 of the TSGD also states that speed repeater signs shall be erected at "regular intervals" within the limit but not on a road on which there is provided a system of carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity placed not more than 183 metres apart in England and Wales or not more than 185 metres apart in Scotland and which is subject to a speed limit of 30 mph; or a motorway on which a national speed limit is in force.
The term "Regular Intervals" is not defined under the Directions but spacing is mentioned in guidance to Local Authorities in a Traffic Advisory leaflet 1/95 on recommended distances which appear to have been breached in what has been said.
So the outcome of this in the absence of the repeaters there has been a clear breach of Direction 11 so the 40 cannot be enforced. Without street lights it appears the road reverts to a NSL.
Coming to the 30 on an unlit road, again an Order should have been made under Section 84(1) RTRA. Because of the fact unlit and therefore not a "restricted road" then it too has to be signed at the start and have repeaters.
Where street lights start in a 30 different rules apply.
You going to advise the LA Streaky?
DVD
what's the difference between 'street' lighting and 'motorway' lighting.
Isn't it the height?
There's a road near me that was a 40, but has had both 40's covered with that strange grey paint stuff, and a sandwich board '30' put on the path on the right hand side only.
There are no repeaters, and the road lighting looks quite high (used to be a NSL)
any ideas?
Isn't it the height?
There's a road near me that was a 40, but has had both 40's covered with that strange grey paint stuff, and a sandwich board '30' put on the path on the right hand side only.
There are no repeaters, and the road lighting looks quite high (used to be a NSL)
any ideas?
Dwight VanDriver said:
Speed limit of 40 mph on a road (unlit) is made under the authority of Section 84(1) Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. This Order will set out the precise section/distance of road involved.
Under Direction 9 and 10 Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002 there is a requirement for the start to be marked with a 40 sign and termination with the NSL sign ,or lower if entering a 30 mph restriction.
Direction 11 of the TSGD also states that speed repeater signs shall be erected at "regular intervals" within the limit but not on a road on which there is provided a system of carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity placed not more than 183 metres apart in England and Wales or not more than 185 metres apart in Scotland and which is subject to a speed limit of 30 mph; or a motorway on which a national speed limit is in force.
The term "Regular Intervals" is not defined under the Directions but spacing is mentioned in guidance to Local Authorities in a Traffic Advisory leaflet 1/95 on recommended distances which appear to have been breached in what has been said.
Interesting - thanks.
Nothing stopping repeaters being stuck on camera poles in the regs then - probably why the Cambds scamera guy didn't answer my question!!
The real reason must be either
a) Can't be arsed
or
b) It would affect revenue
Neither of which is good for safety.
When they fail to answer I can quote the regs at 'em..
streaky said:
[ ... ]
Direction 11 of the TSGD also states that speed repeater signs shall be erected at "regular intervals" ...
Would there be an argument that if the intervals were irregular (say 100, 110, 105, 100 yards apart) the limit would not be legal? - S
Not exact regular intervals..just regular...
Like if you are 'regular' means you don't go at exactly 7.30am, EVERY morning...perhaps 7.26am one day and then 7.41 am the next...
Streaky
Just for you then:
Repeater signs.LA Guidelines.
Road over 350 m long and subject to a 40 mph limit.
Max Distance between consec repeater signs same side of the carriageway : 500 m.
Max Distance between consec signs alternate sides of carriageway: 350 m
Max Distance between start/end of road required to be sifgned and first/last repeater: 250m
These distances are not themselves legally enforceable requirements. But, if distances are greater than shown, this fact can be presented in Court as evidence that LA have failed to meet the requirements of Direction 11 to provide such signs at "regular intervals" Proving an illegally signed limit makes it unenforceable is the argument that has been used in the past.
DVD
Just for you then:
Repeater signs.LA Guidelines.
Road over 350 m long and subject to a 40 mph limit.
Max Distance between consec repeater signs same side of the carriageway : 500 m.
Max Distance between consec signs alternate sides of carriageway: 350 m
Max Distance between start/end of road required to be sifgned and first/last repeater: 250m
These distances are not themselves legally enforceable requirements. But, if distances are greater than shown, this fact can be presented in Court as evidence that LA have failed to meet the requirements of Direction 11 to provide such signs at "regular intervals" Proving an illegally signed limit makes it unenforceable is the argument that has been used in the past.
DVD
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