Big, big scare
Discussion
The S bit me on Monday, big time. Had the day off work, and it was a lovely day, so went for a jaunt. Coming round the corner on Clapham Park Road and I hit a trail of slush left by buses. I was only doing about 10mph.
The car suddenly, utterly without warning, let go. I was immediately at 45 degrees in the road. I caught it, held it and started to rein the slide in, but then things went properly pear shaped. As the tail came in, it hit the same slime trail and violently pendulumed out the other way. I couldn't keep it in line at all (this with plenty of experience of slides, racing, drifting, you name it). Full 180, heading sideways for a wall: managed to fishtail her back around a bit more and hit the kerb between two bollards (missing them was a big achievement!). Mounted the kerb, and crunched a wall nose on. Got out of the car literally shaking. See my other thread for damage
I was utterly shocked by the lack of progression in tha car's chassis - the way it let go gave me no warning, I wasn't hooning, I wasn't even giving it any throttle until I caught the first slide. It has the rubbish Pirelli P6000s on the back, but still - this was something. I am used to powerful rear drive cars - in fact my last one was almost exactly twice as powerful and only a bit heavier than the S2. I have never encountered a car letting go quite so spectacularly, at such a low speed, and in such an evil manner.
Lesson learned kids. Ride drive day with the Tiv when fixed. No serious damage, as I only had very small forward momentum when I nudged the wall (with the rubber rubbing strip). These cars need respect, no matter how much experience you may think you have.
Is this typical? Or does the setup on my car need work. The breakaway was total, extraordinarily quick and there was absolutely no warning. I find that my enjoyment of the car is very much compromised - hopefully this won't be permanent...
>>> Edited by Harry Flashman on Tuesday 8th February 14:20
The car suddenly, utterly without warning, let go. I was immediately at 45 degrees in the road. I caught it, held it and started to rein the slide in, but then things went properly pear shaped. As the tail came in, it hit the same slime trail and violently pendulumed out the other way. I couldn't keep it in line at all (this with plenty of experience of slides, racing, drifting, you name it). Full 180, heading sideways for a wall: managed to fishtail her back around a bit more and hit the kerb between two bollards (missing them was a big achievement!). Mounted the kerb, and crunched a wall nose on. Got out of the car literally shaking. See my other thread for damage
I was utterly shocked by the lack of progression in tha car's chassis - the way it let go gave me no warning, I wasn't hooning, I wasn't even giving it any throttle until I caught the first slide. It has the rubbish Pirelli P6000s on the back, but still - this was something. I am used to powerful rear drive cars - in fact my last one was almost exactly twice as powerful and only a bit heavier than the S2. I have never encountered a car letting go quite so spectacularly, at such a low speed, and in such an evil manner.
Lesson learned kids. Ride drive day with the Tiv when fixed. No serious damage, as I only had very small forward momentum when I nudged the wall (with the rubber rubbing strip). These cars need respect, no matter how much experience you may think you have.
Is this typical? Or does the setup on my car need work. The breakaway was total, extraordinarily quick and there was absolutely no warning. I find that my enjoyment of the car is very much compromised - hopefully this won't be permanent...
>>> Edited by Harry Flashman on Tuesday 8th February 14:20
Harry,
Somewhere in the S Forum, I've seen a comment on the Pirellis - that was not very good!
Clearly, the 'incident' shocked you - don't think I've seen such a long post describing a wooooooops!
Glad you're OK. Regarding the bonnet hinge, I would have thought any decent welding shop could knock you up one if you take the old one off or take the car to use as a pattern
Somewhere in the S Forum, I've seen a comment on the Pirellis - that was not very good!
Clearly, the 'incident' shocked you - don't think I've seen such a long post describing a wooooooops!
Glad you're OK. Regarding the bonnet hinge, I would have thought any decent welding shop could knock you up one if you take the old one off or take the car to use as a pattern
It sounds as if the oversteer may have been caused by having some wheels on grippy stuff and others on slime (diesel, or whatever). In this situation there's very little you can do except limit the damage and hope you can regain control before you hit anything. If it is getting away from you, hitting the brakes is usually your best option rather than trying to ride it out. But it is not always easy to do the 'right' thing in the heat of the moment.
In my experience the rebound is normally harder to catch than the initial slide. Those tyres probably aren't helping, but the further out of line the car is before you react, the harder it is to catch it.
It sounds as if you are well practiced in the theory and practice of car control but some more practice in this car would be a good idea. Properly set up on decent tyres, the handling is very benign.
In my experience the rebound is normally harder to catch than the initial slide. Those tyres probably aren't helping, but the further out of line the car is before you react, the harder it is to catch it.
It sounds as if you are well practiced in the theory and practice of car control but some more practice in this car would be a good idea. Properly set up on decent tyres, the handling is very benign.
Firstly, glad you're in one piece… 
My S was always SO tractable… drove it in all conditions, and you could easily catch it, or throw the tail out at will from side-to-side. I do, however, entirely agree with GreenV8S that in a split traction situation, you are essentially a passenger.
I ran the RE720's on my S… a lot better than the RE71's (IMHO) and certainly better in the wet… I did also have a full geometry setup done by Austec so I knew everything was pointing in the right direction
Hope you're back on the road soon...
My S was always SO tractable… drove it in all conditions, and you could easily catch it, or throw the tail out at will from side-to-side. I do, however, entirely agree with GreenV8S that in a split traction situation, you are essentially a passenger.
I ran the RE720's on my S… a lot better than the RE71's (IMHO) and certainly better in the wet… I did also have a full geometry setup done by Austec so I knew everything was pointing in the right direction
Hope you're back on the road soon...
Had the same thing happen in my s3 this time of year a few years ago. I was doing about 40mph around a left hand corner pressing on and suddenly the back let go big time. The car came around to about 45 degree before I caught it and then it swung the other way where I caught it once more (helped by the gras bank) and then I got it going straight again. Pretty alarming but my mates following said it looked pretty good
It let go on me a number of times and although I never lost it I didn't feel as though it was as progressive as other cars I've had and I never knew it was coming unless I deliberately provoked it. Edited to add: on nearly all the other rwd cars I've had you get more feel on the limit than I ever did in the s3.
One of the reasons why I got rid of it in the end but I suspect that the problem would have been much reduced by some decent shocks and a proper alignment check.
Regards,
Mark
>> Edited by dern on Tuesday 8th February 15:35
It let go on me a number of times and although I never lost it I didn't feel as though it was as progressive as other cars I've had and I never knew it was coming unless I deliberately provoked it. Edited to add: on nearly all the other rwd cars I've had you get more feel on the limit than I ever did in the s3.
One of the reasons why I got rid of it in the end but I suspect that the problem would have been much reduced by some decent shocks and a proper alignment check.
Regards,
Mark
>> Edited by dern on Tuesday 8th February 15:35
I stopped taking back roads into work when I caught myself nonchalently opposite-locking my way through a quiet roundabout while tuning the radio. It was the only remotely interesting bit of road in an otherwise very boring stretch and I got used to waking things up for that bit when there was nobody else to notice/get upset. But I decided that when it got so routine that I wasn't even really paying attention, it was time to take a different route!
These cars are very tractible once you get to know them, but you do need to find an appropriate time and place.
These cars are very tractible once you get to know them, but you do need to find an appropriate time and place.
GreenV8S said:
It sounds as if the oversteer may have been caused by having some wheels on grippy stuff and others on slime (diesel, or whatever). In this situation there's very little you can do except limit the damage and hope you can regain control before you hit anything.
Exactly what happened - both on the initial slide and on the rebound. I used to be pretty good at handling this situation on track in my MG - but it had a chunky Quaife LSD, which actually makes things easier IMHO.
Shall be taking my car to a circuit and learning it very well, then making some changes. When funds allow
Harry Flashman said:
...I used to be pretty good at handling this situation on track in my MG - but it had a chunky Quaife LSD, which actually makes things easier IMHO.
......
Luckily some S3's had the option and V8S's and I beleive S4's had it as standard
. No need for complacency though .
Harry
You can always watch PeterH sprinting his V8S in the rain to see what arm twirling is needed to keep it on the black stuff. www.pistonheads.tv/clip122
respect
, me I'd be facing the wrong way after the first corner 
.
Harry
respect
, me I'd be facing the wrong way after the first corner . Harry
GreenV8S said:
I stopped taking back roads into work when I caught myself nonchalently opposite-locking my way through a quiet roundabout...
Must admit I'm giving the country lanes a wide berth during the colder months following a couple of "polite reminders" from the back end of the Chim
Usually these situations occur because you are not expecting them and so your reactions are not quite up to the speed they usually are. If you deliberately set the car up to oversteer, or are pushing hard you have far more focus. The element of surprise also causes you to overcompensate (in my experience), dialling in far too much corrective lock and not being able to get it off in time, pendulum back and forth.
I can drift my car sideways around corners with enough control to scare my Dad, but confidently enough to be safe on an empty road. However, doing 20 mph around a diesel covered roundabout outside a Bedford industrial estate I lost it completely. I was going soooo s l o w l y, but nothing I did made any difference as there was just no grip and caught by surprise.
Z
(Get some new tyres and make sure you have them at the correct pressures
)
I can drift my car sideways around corners with enough control to scare my Dad, but confidently enough to be safe on an empty road. However, doing 20 mph around a diesel covered roundabout outside a Bedford industrial estate I lost it completely. I was going soooo s l o w l y, but nothing I did made any difference as there was just no grip and caught by surprise.
Z
(Get some new tyres and make sure you have them at the correct pressures
) z_chromozone said:
Usually these situations occur because you are not expecting them and so your reactions are not quite up to the speed they usually are. If you deliberately set the car up to oversteer, or are pushing hard you have far more focus. The element of surprise also causes you to overcompensate (in my experience), dialling in far too much corrective lock and not being able to get it off in time, pendulum back and forth.
I can drift my car sideways around corners with enough control to scare my Dad, but confidently enough to be safe on an empty road. However, doing 20 mph around a diesel covered roundabout outside a Bedford industrial estate I lost it completely. I was going soooo s l o w l y, but nothing I did made any difference as there was just no grip and caught by surprise.
Z
(Get some new tyres and make sure you have them at the correct pressures
Absolutely right. I can drift a car highly competently and perform all sorts of sliding manoeovres (including that party trick in my old MG where you 180 into a parking space on the other side of the road
- always a winner, that one). If you are on track, you are expecting it and holding the slides etc is much easier. When it happens unexpectedly, your reactions are slower and less well moderated, and that makes all the difference. Well, that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!
Harry -
I come on hear to see how you're doing and this is what I find!
Seriously though - glad to hear you're OK just accelerates the hinge repair i guess...
ditch those P6000s ASAP - had a couple of breakaways prior to getting them on there, but it was noticable that they felt much more 'skittish' the the yokohamas, so I was always very careful.
its not that uncommon at low speed as Wildfire will testify here
Hope you can get it sorted soon.
BERG (now riving a nissan
)
I come on hear to see how you're doing and this is what I find!
Seriously though - glad to hear you're OK just accelerates the hinge repair i guess...
ditch those P6000s ASAP - had a couple of breakaways prior to getting them on there, but it was noticable that they felt much more 'skittish' the the yokohamas, so I was always very careful.
its not that uncommon at low speed as Wildfire will testify here
Hope you can get it sorted soon.
BERG (now riving a nissan
)Harry, sorry to hear about it! Yep, the Pirellis are one of the worst tyres I have ever driven on. I have them all round which makes the car much more predictable. They are about the worst tyre to have on the rear! As a yonuger S driver, I can understand what it feels like to get into stick. Luckily I have only lost it once, again at 10mph, you may have hit Diesel, which is what I did (it was next to a truck park). I've done around 18000 in the S and am only now feeling confidant enough to chuck it around in most conditions.
Thanks Guys - Tim: sorry about nearly stacking your car properly! Ditch that Nissan, fella.
Wildfire - I know exactly how the slide (and the return slide) happened - in both directions one wheel (just one) hit a trail of mud & slime left by busses/lorries going round the corner.
May swap the tyres round so that the Bridgestones are on the back - lack of grip front end from the Pirellis will be more tolerable (understeer etc) than the wayward characteristics of the back end...
Wildfire - I know exactly how the slide (and the return slide) happened - in both directions one wheel (just one) hit a trail of mud & slime left by busses/lorries going round the corner.
May swap the tyres round so that the Bridgestones are on the back - lack of grip front end from the Pirellis will be more tolerable (understeer etc) than the wayward characteristics of the back end...
BERGS2 said:
Harry -
I come on hear to see how you're doing and this is what I find!
Seriously though - glad to hear you're OK just accelerates the hinge repair i guess...
ditch those P6000s ASAP - had a couple of breakaways prior to getting them on there, but it was noticable that they felt much more 'skittish' the the yokohamas, so I was always very careful.
its not that uncommon at low speed as Wildfire will testify
here
Hope you can get it sorted soon.
BERG (now riving a nissan
and proud of it when I saw him posting his pics on Jap chat!!!!
seconded, thirded, fourthded (!) on the P6000s.
Don't have experience of other tyres on the S, admittedly, but geez do they give out easily
Even managed to spin 'em up in third the other day - not good.
Looking forward to shredding the backs and buying some decent grip for the summer.
Don't have experience of other tyres on the S, admittedly, but geez do they give out easily
Even managed to spin 'em up in third the other day - not good. Looking forward to shredding the backs and buying some decent grip for the summer.
Gassing Station | S Series | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff