Living and dying abroad... the legal ins and outs.
Discussion
I know there are a few posters who either live, or spend a good deal of time living abroad, and just wonder of any of them have given any thought as to what happens if they or a family member died abroad?
I have become familiar with the French aspect.
You will need copies of the Death Certificate... in France you should request that the Mairie give you ‘certificat de deces plurilingue’. Small Mairies rarely have these so bigger Mairies may have to provide them with a template. They will then give you as many as you need.
The succession must go through a ‘notaire’ in France and takes a good few months before it is settled... especially with the lack of certain paperwork common in France and other countries.
All participating French bureaucracy immediately ask for the "Livret de Famille" and are puzzled that we don't have them in the UK... the funeral director, the notaire, the mayor, the hospital and police (if involved).
If you have/had money on the French bank, your family won't have access to it until the lack of the Livret de Famille is resolved... the bank staff want to see it too.
If you have investments in the UK and a UK bank account, and did not make a will, the family wont get probate in the UK until French Notaire satisfies them that there are no heirs or outstanding financial issues in France.
I had to send a form to the French Notaire from our solicitor, written in English on behalf of the probate court, which the French Notaire refused to deal with until he had an "attested" translation (you can get this done at a French Consulate).
He then typed out the responses in French and stamped HIS document and returned it - but the French Consulate do NOT produce attested copies from French to English - only the other way around! Still waiting to see what the probate court makes of that!
In France you cannot disinherit certain members of you family, and you are not legally entitled to know the cause of death if you do not know it.
So any ex-pats have experience of this they can share?
Any legal staff have experience too?
I have become familiar with the French aspect.
You will need copies of the Death Certificate... in France you should request that the Mairie give you ‘certificat de deces plurilingue’. Small Mairies rarely have these so bigger Mairies may have to provide them with a template. They will then give you as many as you need.
The succession must go through a ‘notaire’ in France and takes a good few months before it is settled... especially with the lack of certain paperwork common in France and other countries.
All participating French bureaucracy immediately ask for the "Livret de Famille" and are puzzled that we don't have them in the UK... the funeral director, the notaire, the mayor, the hospital and police (if involved).
If you have/had money on the French bank, your family won't have access to it until the lack of the Livret de Famille is resolved... the bank staff want to see it too.
If you have investments in the UK and a UK bank account, and did not make a will, the family wont get probate in the UK until French Notaire satisfies them that there are no heirs or outstanding financial issues in France.
I had to send a form to the French Notaire from our solicitor, written in English on behalf of the probate court, which the French Notaire refused to deal with until he had an "attested" translation (you can get this done at a French Consulate).
He then typed out the responses in French and stamped HIS document and returned it - but the French Consulate do NOT produce attested copies from French to English - only the other way around! Still waiting to see what the probate court makes of that!
In France you cannot disinherit certain members of you family, and you are not legally entitled to know the cause of death if you do not know it.
So any ex-pats have experience of this they can share?
Any legal staff have experience too?
Actus Reus said:
There's a new EC rule on choice of jurisdiction for wills - am about to rush out, but google 'Brussels IV Succession' and you'll find some stuff on it, but it makes quite a large difference.
I think it might be too late for me, as we already are already caught up in probate, but I'll take a look.The Livret de Famille is the biggest hurdle - the notaire might insist on an heir search which is costly.
I'm not complaining - I think the Livret de Famille is actually a good idea - it would stop estates going to the crown when an heir can't be found!
Actus Reus said:
There's a new EC rule on choice of jurisdiction for wills - am about to rush out, but google 'Brussels IV Succession' and you'll find some stuff on it, but it makes quite a large difference.
Brussels IV said:
UK nationals and residents should note that the UK has opted out of Brussels IV, along with Ireland and Denmark (due largely to a perceived incompatibility between legal systems, rather than political squabbles).
Why am I not surprised!Why is it that when another country does something better than we do, the UK Gpvt. never learns and copies them?
Sorry, was only skim reading earlier - yes, Brussels IV is only relevant for people who died after 17th August - the big effect is that a Brit leaving in Spain can make a will valid in Spain and opting for his estate, even including Spanish immovable property, to be governed by the law of England and Wales. This is therefore only really relevant to you if you're inheriting the French house and keeping it (and are quite old 
).
There are many questions thanks to the UK's opting-out, but that, in broad strokes, is it. I know some people who are good with French inheritance (based in London, and a firm of notaries), but they're expensive and you sound as if you're getting on well.
).There are many questions thanks to the UK's opting-out, but that, in broad strokes, is it. I know some people who are good with French inheritance (based in London, and a firm of notaries), but they're expensive and you sound as if you're getting on well.
It is a great deal of work to plow through, as well as 3 trips to France already, and another when I can afford the time off and ferry fare!
Another difficulty is clearing a foreign home - it isn't worth all the effort and cost of bringing back items to the UK that are not of either great monetary value or sentimental value - I gave away a car that was registered in France... the ferry fare, fuel and cost of registering it here - and altering the headlights to right hand drive was just not worth the hassle - and we were never in France long enough to handle the sale.
The French don't do Skips - everything has to be sold or re-cycled - and all the bays are marked in French.
I can order breakfast and dinner in French, but legal French and the words for "Toughened Glass" or "Aluminium cookware" escaped me, and we had to resort to looking in each bay until we found the one we needed! Also, while the householders don't have to pay, if they died, and your name isn't on the utility bills or tax forms, YOU have to pay to re-cycle!
Another difficulty is clearing a foreign home - it isn't worth all the effort and cost of bringing back items to the UK that are not of either great monetary value or sentimental value - I gave away a car that was registered in France... the ferry fare, fuel and cost of registering it here - and altering the headlights to right hand drive was just not worth the hassle - and we were never in France long enough to handle the sale.
The French don't do Skips - everything has to be sold or re-cycled - and all the bays are marked in French.
I can order breakfast and dinner in French, but legal French and the words for "Toughened Glass" or "Aluminium cookware" escaped me, and we had to resort to looking in each bay until we found the one we needed! Also, while the householders don't have to pay, if they died, and your name isn't on the utility bills or tax forms, YOU have to pay to re-cycle!
You could consider finding a lawyer in France and granting them a power of attorney to get it all wound up - you'll pay for it, but it may be more convenient for you. Certainly regarding the sale if that's what you intend to do with the place - a procuration pour vendre saves you having to go all the way there just to sign the deeds to sell the place and will only cost a few hundred quid drafted, notarised and apostilled (if needs be).
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