Discussion
Well I've got a Holley MPFI single plane manifold somewhere between Ohio and Scotland... Shouldn't be a problem getting a single plane EFI system to fit unless there is a problem getting most single plane manifolds to fit if you see what I mean. Throttle bodies are a bit thinner than carbs.
Getting a Stealth Ram to fit might be interesting. I figured it was a no-no on the GTR without building a whole new plenum and using a crank triggered ignition (to get the distributor low enough). It is possible to get that sort of tunnel ram manifold to fit on a Can-Am. Brammo got a Hogan Racing sheet metal custom manifold fitted to the first Can-Am he built. Quite an expensive set up though.
Getting a Stealth Ram to fit might be interesting. I figured it was a no-no on the GTR without building a whole new plenum and using a crank triggered ignition (to get the distributor low enough). It is possible to get that sort of tunnel ram manifold to fit on a Can-Am. Brammo got a Hogan Racing sheet metal custom manifold fitted to the first Can-Am he built. Quite an expensive set up though.
I've fitted the Holley Commander 950 with the square flange, part #91005211. The Stealth ram doesn't work as well on an Ultima as the throttle body is close to the bulkhead and requires fabbing an intake tube with bends, which kill power. I'm fitting and dyno tuning one to a 383 for a Can am in the next couple weeks ( waiting for the injection to get here). Do yourself a favor and get the new optional wideband, about $500 extra. Aids in tuning. The Holley people are great with customer support. They're all real enthusiasts with great product knowledge.
Jeff
www.schwartzperformance.com
Jeff
www.schwartzperformance.com
I have the Edelbrock EFI system. There are good points and bad points with this system (or any other, really) $2,300
The 27lb injectors on anything above about 400HP need to be upgraded. I had to go with Accel 40lb injectors to support 500RWHP. The 27lb injectors were running at 100% duty cycle at Denver altitude, and would have been way too lean at sea level. 40lb was slightly overkill but, with the sequencial firing, is fine and I can run lower fuel pressures. This will also supercharge later without new injectors. $420 for new injectors.
The spark is very weak with the Edelbrock system as well. I had to add a MSD 6 to get solid spark. (This problem is compounded by Denver altitude. Lower air density + manifold vacuum = lower compression = slower buring fuel) $150
Timing with this system in conjunction with the recommended Mallory distributor is not as good as it should be either. A timing light has it jumping all over the place. I had to add a crank trigger to get it right. $100
Add dyno time trying to get it sorted, and you are talking serious money. The Edelbrock system CAN work, and my car runs like a raped ape now, but I sank money into getting it right that I had not budgeted.
If I were to do it all over again, I would have spent the money on a better EFI system in the first place. Running anything below 400HP would probably be fine out of the box if you added a MSD box.
Allen
The 27lb injectors on anything above about 400HP need to be upgraded. I had to go with Accel 40lb injectors to support 500RWHP. The 27lb injectors were running at 100% duty cycle at Denver altitude, and would have been way too lean at sea level. 40lb was slightly overkill but, with the sequencial firing, is fine and I can run lower fuel pressures. This will also supercharge later without new injectors. $420 for new injectors.
The spark is very weak with the Edelbrock system as well. I had to add a MSD 6 to get solid spark. (This problem is compounded by Denver altitude. Lower air density + manifold vacuum = lower compression = slower buring fuel) $150
Timing with this system in conjunction with the recommended Mallory distributor is not as good as it should be either. A timing light has it jumping all over the place. I had to add a crank trigger to get it right. $100
Add dyno time trying to get it sorted, and you are talking serious money. The Edelbrock system CAN work, and my car runs like a raped ape now, but I sank money into getting it right that I had not budgeted.
If I were to do it all over again, I would have spent the money on a better EFI system in the first place. Running anything below 400HP would probably be fine out of the box if you added a MSD box.
Allen
Thanks guys.
There is 'just' about room for a Stealth Ram, maybe,(260mm high), although that may be only at the highest point of the raised 'scoop' in the rear clip (280mm!). I realised that air intake pipes would also need fabricating, although, on the Can-Am clip the Stealth throttle body looks to be approx. the same height as the intake hole? But then again, I know people have blocked these off to avoid the heat soak that makes necks uncomfortable.
The Edelbrock would definitely fit. Thanks for the comments re. injector sizes, but my engine install won't be about out and our power. I may get away with a 27 although a 30 or a 32 is more likely.
It's a tricky one to call really. The driving factors were (dare I say it):
Cleaner emissions (anyone who's had their eyes streaming whilst sat behind - or even in - an mixture rich Ultima will know what I mean)
Perhaps better fuel economy - I don't object to paying for the fuel, it's the duration between fill ups that becomes a drag (bear in mind that my daily driver does 600 miles to a tank
No carb flooding, a common problem, but not one that can't be sorted with a bit of effort.
More modern. I know that it's the emissions thing that has driven most manufacturers to install EFI, but at the end of the day, you''ve got the potential for far greater control over the charge mixture.
Given that the motor is basically going to be a 'stock' 350 (for now
, other then these two (of which the Edelbrock seems more likely) are there any other conversion 'kits' out there?
Thanks for your help guys
There is 'just' about room for a Stealth Ram, maybe,(260mm high), although that may be only at the highest point of the raised 'scoop' in the rear clip (280mm!). I realised that air intake pipes would also need fabricating, although, on the Can-Am clip the Stealth throttle body looks to be approx. the same height as the intake hole? But then again, I know people have blocked these off to avoid the heat soak that makes necks uncomfortable.
The Edelbrock would definitely fit. Thanks for the comments re. injector sizes, but my engine install won't be about out and our power. I may get away with a 27 although a 30 or a 32 is more likely.
It's a tricky one to call really. The driving factors were (dare I say it):
Cleaner emissions (anyone who's had their eyes streaming whilst sat behind - or even in - an mixture rich Ultima will know what I mean)
Perhaps better fuel economy - I don't object to paying for the fuel, it's the duration between fill ups that becomes a drag (bear in mind that my daily driver does 600 miles to a tank
No carb flooding, a common problem, but not one that can't be sorted with a bit of effort.
More modern. I know that it's the emissions thing that has driven most manufacturers to install EFI, but at the end of the day, you''ve got the potential for far greater control over the charge mixture.
Given that the motor is basically going to be a 'stock' 350 (for now
, other then these two (of which the Edelbrock seems more likely) are there any other conversion 'kits' out there? Thanks for your help guys
I went down the DIY megasquirt route, fantastically adaptable with a great support community. However its not a totally plug and play out of the box solution. I would say its more aligned to an enthusiast who perhaps wants to explore the possibilities and wants the satisfaction of creating something yourself. A complete spare ecu only costs about £120
My chevy megasquirt with links to all the info is at www.mez.co.uk/megasquirt.html
(Clearly with my conversion it was very DIY - because i wanted the fabrication challenge, but megasquirt will support *any* injection hardware you care to dream up, so you could just get a TPI manifold and 'squirt it.)
HTH,
Eliot.
>> Edited by eliot on Thursday 10th February 12:14
My chevy megasquirt with links to all the info is at www.mez.co.uk/megasquirt.html
(Clearly with my conversion it was very DIY - because i wanted the fabrication challenge, but megasquirt will support *any* injection hardware you care to dream up, so you could just get a TPI manifold and 'squirt it.)
HTH,
Eliot.
>> Edited by eliot on Thursday 10th February 12:14
Keep in mind most of the burning eyes while behind an idling Ultima are due to the overlap of the camshaft, hence raw fuel being expelled out the exhaust. When building an EFI engine that you want to burn clean at Idle you'll need to have a cam with with Lobe separation angle like 114 degrees or more. And minimal duration at .050, like 225 degree or less.
Jeff
www.schwartzperformance.com
Jeff
www.schwartzperformance.com
ultimacz said:
Stig - just out of interest, what are your reasons not to consider a more modern LS1 or LS2 motor? It should be even better in terms of emmissions, and should be also lighter (aluminium block).
Hi Peter, it's simply because a SBC became available to me and was too good an offer to miss.
I can certainly see the benefit of the LS1/LS2 and would love to put one in, but I'm happy in the short term to stick with the SBC. Also, the SBC allows me to run without Catalytic converters which would have to be fitted to the LS1/2 to pass the UK SVA test.
Incidently, I decided in the planning stage of this build, that the engine was in fact the easiest part of the car to upgrade. So I've basically specced everything else to be 'top of the line', so if I decide to put in a more powerful lump later on, it's just a straight engine swap.
I'm confident that my engine (which is pretty mildly tuned) will give ample performance - certainly more that I can use on the road (dunno about the track though
. Honestly speaking, how many of us have driven an Ultima at full potential on the road? - well, not in the UK at least, the roads are too short As I said before, this one's not being built for out and out power and speed, it's being built as something I can enjoy driving on a regular basis without having the associated hassle of a high-tuned lump.
I'm obviously getting old
Hope yours is running well
Hi Stig,
find that very reasonable what you say. Performance is not everything, reliability can become quite an issue with these high-tuned engines (and that´s expensive then, I know what I am talking about
)
You mention that you could upgrade to a LSx engine later on without problems. I am also looking into that, but is it really that easy? Read a lot of comments about different engine mounts, adaptor plates, exhaust systems. Probably also alternator and A/C compressor won´t fit anymore and so on... Plus different electronics and all kind of sensors... Also the Ultima Factory seems to be a bit shy of that - is it really such a hassle?
Peter
find that very reasonable what you say. Performance is not everything, reliability can become quite an issue with these high-tuned engines (and that´s expensive then, I know what I am talking about
) You mention that you could upgrade to a LSx engine later on without problems. I am also looking into that, but is it really that easy? Read a lot of comments about different engine mounts, adaptor plates, exhaust systems. Probably also alternator and A/C compressor won´t fit anymore and so on... Plus different electronics and all kind of sensors... Also the Ultima Factory seems to be a bit shy of that - is it really such a hassle?
Peter
ultimacz said:
Hi Stig,
find that very reasonable what you say. Performance is not everything, reliability can become quite an issue with these high-tuned engines (and that´s expensive then, I know what I am talking about
You mention that you could upgrade to a LSx engine later on without problems. I am also looking into that, but is it really that easy? Read a lot of comments about different engine mounts, adaptor plates, exhaust systems. Probably also alternator and A/C compressor won´t fit anymore and so on... Plus different electronics and all kind of sensors... Also the Ultima Factory seems to be a bit shy of that - is it really such a hassle?
Peter
Sorry Peter, should have been clearer, what I meant was that it was easy to upgrade the SBC later on, not to install an LS1/2. That would indeed require a fair amount of work as you've described.
I think we've both had enough experience of 'mega-power' engines to know that sometimes, it's nice just to drive a car without having to constantly watch the guages
In time (for the UK at least), the SVA regulations may change which would force the factory to fit a more modern, low emission engine. But for the time being, the SBC still offers a the best power to cost ratio, so there seems little point for them to go that route I guess?
Besides, I like the 'old school' V8 and carb combination - fewer electronic bits to confuse me
Stig - don´t want to hi-jack your thread, but how do you plan to do the tuning of the EFI, on a dyno? Does this work well or is there still a risk? As far as I understand the main reason for staying with the carb (besides cost) is the risk of running lean and blowing the engine (?) There is nobody over here who wanted to do EFI for me - it is all old-school, that is SBC with carb...
Does anybody know what a conversion on an AS engine to a - let´s say - Commander 950 EFI means in terms of total cost and time? What parts to replace in addition to the carb, for example can the MSD ignition stay as it is? What about distributor etc. Which additional sensors? Sorry for asking maybe stupid questions but I am a total amateur, concerning technical matters.
Does anybody know what a conversion on an AS engine to a - let´s say - Commander 950 EFI means in terms of total cost and time? What parts to replace in addition to the carb, for example can the MSD ignition stay as it is? What about distributor etc. Which additional sensors? Sorry for asking maybe stupid questions but I am a total amateur, concerning technical matters.
ultimacz said:
Stig - don´t want to hi-jack your thread, but how do you plan to do the tuning of the EFI, on a dyno? Does this work well or is there still a risk? As far as I understand the main reason for staying with the carb (besides cost) is the risk of running lean and blowing the engine (?) There is nobody over here who wanted to do EFI for me - it is all old-school, that is SBC with carb...
Does anybody know what a conversion on an AS engine to a - let´s say - Commander 950 EFI means in terms of total cost and time? What parts to replace in addition to the carb, for example can the MSD ignition stay as it is? What about distributor etc. Which additional sensors? Sorry for asking maybe stupid questions but I am a total amateur, concerning technical matters.
Peter, basically you'd need someone who knows their stuff to get a decent map programmed. But there's the thing, most don't seem to want to know when it's an old V8! When I did the article with Dave Walker of CCC magazine (a 'supposed' engine/tuning guru) he was the first to admit he knew very little about SBCs let along programming a decent map for one!
That said, US builders are far more up to speed with it and given the tight emissions constraints in certain states, well used to EFI etc. Although, not a lot of use to you in your part of the world!
I asked Gail at AS about EFI and he had good things to say about the Edelbrock/Holley setups. Probably best asking him direct if you're thinking of converting.
I'm going to stick with carbs for the time being.
Well, there is a bit of a misnomer about running the EFI too lean... if it is lean, it just won't run right. Same as a carb engine running too lean. Now, add a supercharger when running lean, you will have a problem.
Your MSD ignition can stay. In fact, I had to add one with my EFI. The distributor will need to be modified, but the mods depend on the disrtibutor. (HEI, points, etc.) Not a big cost in relation to everything else... The additional sensors should be included with the EFI kit. Things like O2 sensor, MAP sensor, throttle position sensor, and so on will all connect thru the EFI. I had to make no additional changed to the stock wiring on the car.
The only change I did have to make, other than the crank trigger mentioned above, was the design I had done for the fuel pumps and return lines. The Edelbrock system requires the fuel pump(s) to be run from the EFI computer and not the original pump wiring in the loom. This changed my design for seperate tank/pump combo. I could have made it work with additional parts and some substancial wiring changes, but it didn't seem worth it. One of those things you find out AFTER you buy the system, and not before...
Most builders/mechanics do not want to mess with EFI conversion for a couple of reasons.
1) Most take a laptop to tune, and it takes someone who knows what they are doing to get the fuel maps and timing curves right.
2) You can tune it without a chassis dyno, but its difficult to gauge minor changes and makes it "seat of the pants" and feel instead of real numbers and real comparisons between pulls.
3) You need a wideband to get the air to fuel ratio right. Even if it is a remote (not on the car permanently) the tuner needs it to get it right. Minor changes in air:fuel make a BIG difference in HP output.
Why go to the extra trouble and expense? Better throttle response, better fuel mileage, more accurate tuning. If I add up the cost of the EFI kit, parts, tuning, etc. I have approx $3,800 in EFI/ignition alone.
Hope that helps!
Allen
Your MSD ignition can stay. In fact, I had to add one with my EFI. The distributor will need to be modified, but the mods depend on the disrtibutor. (HEI, points, etc.) Not a big cost in relation to everything else... The additional sensors should be included with the EFI kit. Things like O2 sensor, MAP sensor, throttle position sensor, and so on will all connect thru the EFI. I had to make no additional changed to the stock wiring on the car.
The only change I did have to make, other than the crank trigger mentioned above, was the design I had done for the fuel pumps and return lines. The Edelbrock system requires the fuel pump(s) to be run from the EFI computer and not the original pump wiring in the loom. This changed my design for seperate tank/pump combo. I could have made it work with additional parts and some substancial wiring changes, but it didn't seem worth it. One of those things you find out AFTER you buy the system, and not before...
Most builders/mechanics do not want to mess with EFI conversion for a couple of reasons.
1) Most take a laptop to tune, and it takes someone who knows what they are doing to get the fuel maps and timing curves right.
2) You can tune it without a chassis dyno, but its difficult to gauge minor changes and makes it "seat of the pants" and feel instead of real numbers and real comparisons between pulls.
3) You need a wideband to get the air to fuel ratio right. Even if it is a remote (not on the car permanently) the tuner needs it to get it right. Minor changes in air:fuel make a BIG difference in HP output.
Why go to the extra trouble and expense? Better throttle response, better fuel mileage, more accurate tuning. If I add up the cost of the EFI kit, parts, tuning, etc. I have approx $3,800 in EFI/ignition alone.
Hope that helps!
Allen
Thanks Allan and Stig! I think I understand it a bit better now. Still don´t know which way to go, will keep my SBC with carb for the time being. For the future there is still the choice whether to go the LSx way or conversion to EFI with SBC.
Hope to start my new engine for the first time within the next few days, if weather allows. Got the new Dart block now, everything´s blueprinted and built with great care - hope it was worth the money...
Peter
Hope to start my new engine for the first time within the next few days, if weather allows. Got the new Dart block now, everything´s blueprinted and built with great care - hope it was worth the money...
Peter
By the way there are some photos I took last week, before the engine was put back.
383 stroker, Dart Little M block, Brodix Track 1 heads manually ported, Brodix race manifold, lunati crank kit (10.5 compression), 248 CompCam steel billet camshaft, Jesel valvetrain, Holley DP 750 HP carb. Should be good for 550+ HP, but it´s exactly this type of engine where you have to watch the gauges all the time as Stig said - anyway, my last attempt, if it blows up I´ll go for something reasonable...
Another experiment: we replaced the oil cooler by a heat exchanger. Should have a lot of advantages over the std. oil cooler, but we will see. It is installed in a way that I can rip it out anytime, if it does not fulfill expectations.
Oh yes, and then I bought a block heating device, as used for formula cars. Should heat the coolant and block to approx. 80C before starting. Wanted that because it does not do the engine any good that my carb has no choke, especially if outside temps are low. My poor mechanic has no idea how to fit that, don´t want to be in his shoes...
can´t wait until this beauty will be back on the street...
383 stroker, Dart Little M block, Brodix Track 1 heads manually ported, Brodix race manifold, lunati crank kit (10.5 compression), 248 CompCam steel billet camshaft, Jesel valvetrain, Holley DP 750 HP carb. Should be good for 550+ HP, but it´s exactly this type of engine where you have to watch the gauges all the time as Stig said - anyway, my last attempt, if it blows up I´ll go for something reasonable...
Another experiment: we replaced the oil cooler by a heat exchanger. Should have a lot of advantages over the std. oil cooler, but we will see. It is installed in a way that I can rip it out anytime, if it does not fulfill expectations.
Oh yes, and then I bought a block heating device, as used for formula cars. Should heat the coolant and block to approx. 80C before starting. Wanted that because it does not do the engine any good that my carb has no choke, especially if outside temps are low. My poor mechanic has no idea how to fit that, don´t want to be in his shoes...
can´t wait until this beauty will be back on the street...
Stig,
All this fuel mapping is needed for a speed density system like the Holley, Stack, and Edelbrock systems. Here is a link to a mass air system that doesn't need the mapping due to the sensors (MAS primarily) reading the exact air charge to the manifold.
[url]www.mass-floefi.com/[/url]
Peter
All this fuel mapping is needed for a speed density system like the Holley, Stack, and Edelbrock systems. Here is a link to a mass air system that doesn't need the mapping due to the sensors (MAS primarily) reading the exact air charge to the manifold.
[url]www.mass-floefi.com/[/url]
Peter
MrURL said:
Stig,
All this fuel mapping is needed for a speed density system like the Holley, Stack, and Edelbrock systems. Here is a link to a mass air system that doesn't need the mapping due to the sensors (MAS primarily) reading the exact air charge to the manifold.
[url]www.mass-floefi.com/[/url]
Peter
Cool - thanks Peter. I'll have a look
Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff