Speaker wire for surround sound speakers
Discussion
Dr Murdoch said:
Is it worth paying for quality cable?
Its quite a long run, and I'm unsure if I will really notice the benefits of high end cable of over some billy basic stuff?
In short, no its not worth the money for surround speakers. Particularly when you realise how little rear speakers actually contribute to the overall sound. Audiophiles might go to greater costs to get the absolute best sound for music playback.Its quite a long run, and I'm unsure if I will really notice the benefits of high end cable of over some billy basic stuff?
In my last house I fitted expensive OFC QED copper wires, but in my latest house I fitted basic copper-clad aluminium wires, and I don''t notice a poorer performance.
rsbmw said:
Ahh - that legend of this forum!The truth behind that headline is:
"Double blind listening tests are very difficult for anyone."
and:
"It's easy to trick someone's perception."
That said, as someone who is very much into hi-fi as well as recording and mixing professionally, the side and rear speakers are fed with speaker cable that cost no more than about £3 a metre. That's in a system that costs about £30k in total.
The truth is that the amount of the sonic data that comes through the side and rear speakers is limited. Secondly, with the rear speakers, they are behind your head, and what you are hearing is reflected around anyway. It's difficult enough to hear the difference between speakers in that scenario, let alone speaker cables.
As has been said, bell wire might not be a good match, and it's worth having a proper speaker cable, but there's no sensible or technical reason to go overboard unless it is to satisfy OCD tendencies.
Troubleatmill said:
No-one ever took up James Randi's speaker cable challenge and won the $1Million.
That should be sufficient to tell you all you need to know.
Tells me that those of us who do believe that cables, supports and various other voodoo tweaks are audible are smart enough to understand that "double blind tests" and the like are of very little value in terms of distinguishing small (but, nonetheless, valuable) differences in sound quality That should be sufficient to tell you all you need to know.
ian996 said:
Troubleatmill said:
No-one ever took up James Randi's speaker cable challenge and won the $1Million.
That should be sufficient to tell you all you need to know.
Tells me that those of us who do believe that cables, supports and various other voodoo tweaks are audible are smart enough to understand that "double blind tests" and the like are of very little value in terms of distinguishing small (but, nonetheless, valuable) differences in sound quality That should be sufficient to tell you all you need to know.
I build my own amps... and I rather have the money spent in resistors with finer tolerances, better quality capacitors etc. ( and those things... do make a difference and oddly enough.... you can measure it)
Oxygen free copper is... erm... oxygen free copper. Just make sure you buy a reasonable gauge.
Edit... Confession time.. I have in the past spent a fair whack on stands etc etc.
Yes - it looked lovely... almost like a piece of art or designed furniture.... and I felt really good about it.
And I think that is what it is.... you feel good about it.
Edited by Troubleatmill on Tuesday 20th October 18:00
Troubleatmill said:
No-one ever took up James Randi's speaker cable challenge and won the $1Million.
That should be sufficient to tell you all you need to know.
It certainly does.That should be sufficient to tell you all you need to know.
James Randi's challenge was to prove something supernatural that could not be measured scientifically.
Different speaker cables have different electrical properties, and the differences can and have been measured. When you hear audio from a speaker, what you are hearing is the air moved by the diaphragm of the speaker, moved by an electromagnet.
That electromagnet is moved by the energy imparted to it from the circuit of the cable connected to it from the amplifier. There will certainly be a difference in the output of a speaker dependent on the speaker cable connected to it.
The issue is whether this is audible.
And, as I've said before, whether this difference is audible in a 'double blind test'.
I've personally been in a room where music industry peeps have said that the new mix was so different to the unacceptable last, and now perfect. Unbeknown to them they were listening to the same thing they did an hour ago.
Magic? No. Perception can be fooled, and fooled with a lot more than the difference between speaker cables. That does not mean that speaker cables make no difference though.
If the speaker cables are silver... I get that. I used to own a set.
Copper is simply an element.
I am more than happy for someone to explain to me how 6 foot of oxygen free 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated is going to behave differently to another 6 foot of oxygen 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated
Copper is simply an element.
I am more than happy for someone to explain to me how 6 foot of oxygen free 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated is going to behave differently to another 6 foot of oxygen 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Personally I'd use 2.5mm². It's super cheap on eBay (10m for £6!).Ignoring whether better better types of cable make a difference, larger wires = less resistance = more power. The only question is whether it'll make a noticeable difference - but the extra cost is so tiny I can't see a disadvantage.
Troubleatmill said:
If the speaker cables are silver... I get that. I used to own a set.
Copper is simply an element.
I am more than happy for someone to explain to me how 6 foot of oxygen free 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated is going to behave differently to another 6 foot of oxygen 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated
Tell me how a 100W stereo amp of a reasonable design sounds different to another 100W stereo amp of a reasonable design. Copper is simply an element.
I am more than happy for someone to explain to me how 6 foot of oxygen free 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated is going to behave differently to another 6 foot of oxygen 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated
Tell me how a speaker with 1 inch tweeter and 6 inch midrange/woofer sounds different to another of a reasonable design.
Both have variables which will affect the resultant sound from the speakers.
What you hear from the speaker is a product of the circuit of the amp through to the electromagnet in the speaker. The speaker cable is a constituent part of that. Cables of differing electrical properties will affect how the amp interacts with the speaker.
The only issue is how much, and whether this makes a significant enough change to the sound to make it worthwhile spending X.
Here's a technical article with some testing:
https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-scien...
Edited by JustinP1 on Wednesday 21st October 09:29
Jakg said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Personally I'd use 2.5mm². It's super cheap on eBay (10m for £6!).Ignoring whether better better types of cable make a difference, larger wires = less resistance = more power. The only question is whether it'll make a noticeable difference - but the extra cost is so tiny I can't see a disadvantage.
Troubleatmill said:
If the speaker cables are silver... I get that. I used to own a set.
Copper is simply an element.
I am more than happy for someone to explain to me how 6 foot of oxygen free 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated is going to behave differently to another 6 foot of oxygen 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated
Silver is simply an element too.Copper is simply an element.
I am more than happy for someone to explain to me how 6 foot of oxygen free 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated is going to behave differently to another 6 foot of oxygen 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated
Does it have different electrical characteristics to copper? Yes. We're interested in resistivity. And here are the numbers:
Cu 16.78 nano ohm metres ... Ag 15.87 nano ohm metres
So both are excellent conductors and silver is fractionally better than copper. All this means is you need a copper wire to be a fraction bigger in cross section than a silver one.
On speaker wire in general it is a trivially easy engineering "problem" to construct a speaker wire that is completely audibly transparent.
To spell it out the inductance and capacitance of any piece of speaker wire well be utterly negligible particularly in the context of the very substantial inductance of the speaker and the capacitance of the amp's decoupling. If your speakers have multiple drivers and a crossover, then worrying about the non linearity of the speaker cable is utterly bonkers.
The only consideration is whether the good old fashioned simple DC resistance of the speaker cable is significant compared to the impedance of the speakers. And if you can't make a speaker cable with a resistance of a fraction of an ohm out of a material like copper, then you're an idiot, because perfectly adequate cabling is already festooned all over your house.
(30A rated flex ... 0.008 ohms per metre for example)
Edited by ATG on Wednesday 21st October 09:57
ATG said:
Troubleatmill said:
If the speaker cables are silver... I get that. I used to own a set.
Copper is simply an element.
I am more than happy for someone to explain to me how 6 foot of oxygen free 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated is going to behave differently to another 6 foot of oxygen 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated
Silver is simply an element too.Copper is simply an element.
I am more than happy for someone to explain to me how 6 foot of oxygen free 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated is going to behave differently to another 6 foot of oxygen 100% Cu in a reasonable gauge insulated
Does it have different electrical characteristics to copper? Yes. We're interested in resistivity. And here are the numbers:
Cu 16.78 nano ohm metres ... Ag 15.87 nano ohm metres
So both are excellent conductors and silver is fractionally better than copper. All this means is you need a copper wire to be a fraction bigger in cross section than a silver one.
On speaker wire in general it is a trivially easy engineering "problem" to construct a speaker wire that is completely audibly transparent.
To spell it out the inductance and capacitance of any piece of speaker wire well be utterly negligible particularly in the context of the very substantial inductance of the speaker and the capacitance of the amp's decoupling. If your speakers have multiple drivers and a crossover, then worrying about the non linearity of the speaker cable is utterly bonkers.
The only consideration is whether the good old fashioned simple DC resistance of the speaker cable is significant compared to the impedance of the speakers. And if you can't make a speaker cable with a resistance of a fraction of an ohm out of a material like copper, then you're an idiot, because perfectly adequate cabling is already festooned all over your house.
(30A rated flex ... 0.008 ohms per metre for example)
Edited by ATG on Wednesday 21st October 09:57
BTW - I couldn't tell the difference between Silver, 100% OFC Copper, Cryogenically frozen 100% OFC copper.
I find in a valve amp - it is easier to hear differences ( as to whether each change makes things better or not is subjective ) - e.g.... adding a constant current source... make an audible change, a change of driver tube... again an audible change etc etc. Going from electrolytic capacitors to something... well anything else... there is a change. Even simple changing diodes to a full bridge... you can hear the change..
All of the above is easily measurable - and anyone- even Great Auntie Nora can hear the difference.
Now as to whether each change is better....???
I'm in the camp of - the fewer things in the circuit path the better.
BB King's guitar amp used to buzz like a demon - but he refused to change the tubes to make it silent; he said... it just makes it sound bad.
6 ft of copper wire... I honestly can't tell one from another.
But... it is all about the music
ATG said:
On speaker wire in general it is a trivially easy engineering "problem" to construct a speaker wire that is completely audibly transparent.
To spell it out the inductance and capacitance of any piece of speaker wire well be utterly negligible particularly in the context of the very substantial inductance of the speaker and the capacitance of the amp's decoupling. If your speakers have multiple drivers and a crossover, then worrying about the non linearity of the speaker cable is utterly bonkers.
The only consideration is whether the good old fashioned simple DC resistance of the speaker cable is significant compared to the impedance of the speakers. And if you can't make a speaker cable with a resistance of a fraction of an ohm out of a material like copper, then you're an idiot, because perfectly adequate cabling is already festooned all over your house.
(30A rated flex ... 0.008 ohms per metre for example)
Great post...............Speaker cable's contribution to sound quality is beyond negligible; assuming that amp and speakers are competently engineered too. To spell it out the inductance and capacitance of any piece of speaker wire well be utterly negligible particularly in the context of the very substantial inductance of the speaker and the capacitance of the amp's decoupling. If your speakers have multiple drivers and a crossover, then worrying about the non linearity of the speaker cable is utterly bonkers.
The only consideration is whether the good old fashioned simple DC resistance of the speaker cable is significant compared to the impedance of the speakers. And if you can't make a speaker cable with a resistance of a fraction of an ohm out of a material like copper, then you're an idiot, because perfectly adequate cabling is already festooned all over your house.
(30A rated flex ... 0.008 ohms per metre for example)
kryten22uk said:
In short, no its not worth the money for surround speakers. Particularly when you realise how little rear speakers actually contribute to the overall sound. Audiophiles might go to greater costs to get the absolute best sound for music playback.
In my last house I fitted expensive OFC QED copper wires, but in my latest house I fitted basic copper-clad aluminium wires, and I don''t notice a poorer performance.
Don't confuse 'Surround Sound' as in Dolby Surround with 'Rear Effect' as in Dolby Digital because the two are very different. Surround Sound is fill, but proper Rear Effect speakers have the ability to fire every single detail from high pitch to (relatively) low bass just like your Front Main and Centre Speakers above a certain size. (Which is why almost all decent surround setups have drivers the same size)In my last house I fitted expensive OFC QED copper wires, but in my latest house I fitted basic copper-clad aluminium wires, and I don''t notice a poorer performance.
Proper Wall mounted Surround Speakers are not for 'Fill' they're a dedicated channel in their own right, so at least make sure the cable is the same brand / diameter as the main three speakers
STiG911 said:
Proper Wall mounted Surround Speakers are a dedicated channel in their own right, so at least make sure the cable is the same brand / diameter as the main three speakers
It will make no audible difference if fronts and rears used different cable brands( and lefts and rights and CC for that matter ). The OP mentioned it will be a fairly long run so there could be a minor 0.25dB loss, on a 30 foot run if bell wire was used but even if that were the case the receiver is more than likely to have auto setup which would take care of it.............Homebase, Screwfix, CEF, Farnell, Maplin all sell decent cable but make sure you don't use B&Q, their stuff is too coloured......
Edited by Crackie on Saturday 7th November 21:33
JustinP1 said:
rsbmw said:
Ahh - that legend of this forum!The truth behind that headline is:
"Double blind listening tests are very difficult for anyone."
and:
"It's easy to trick someone's perception."
The fact that the test is "very difficult for everyone" and "it's easy to trick someone's perception" in this context is proof that the "I can tell the difference between Whizzo Butter and a dead crab" crowd are talking nonsense.
Edited because I couldn't remember the name Whizzo Butter.
Edited by Driller on Sunday 8th November 08:07
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