Dementia - power of attourney?
Discussion
My wifes parents are in their 80's and have both been in and out of hospital a lot in the past 2 years. Her Mum has been diagnosed with dementia and her Dad thinks he can care for her, yet they are now both back in hospital. Her after another fall, and him with a diabetes related issue. The nurses a telling us that he may well also be in the early stages of dementia.
Its fairly obvious to everyone but her father that they need to be in proper care. They are at the point where they are a danger to themselves. With her Mums last fall her Dad didn't even have the sense call an ambulance!!!
Do we need to get power of attourney? Can they be forced into a home for their own safety? What happens when a parent cannot look after themselves but will not go into care?
Before anyone sugests it we have nothing to gain from this other than knowing they are getting 24hr care. They don't own a home, and have nothing of value.
Its fairly obvious to everyone but her father that they need to be in proper care. They are at the point where they are a danger to themselves. With her Mums last fall her Dad didn't even have the sense call an ambulance!!!
Do we need to get power of attourney? Can they be forced into a home for their own safety? What happens when a parent cannot look after themselves but will not go into care?
Before anyone sugests it we have nothing to gain from this other than knowing they are getting 24hr care. They don't own a home, and have nothing of value.
Thanks to some advice here I just started an online process for doing one for one of my folks.
Seems pretty straightforward to be honest - but you may choose to do two as financial and health are separate.
https://www.lastingpowerofattorney.service.gov.uk/...
Seems pretty straightforward to be honest - but you may choose to do two as financial and health are separate.
https://www.lastingpowerofattorney.service.gov.uk/...
The thing is there is no way her Dad will agree to it.
When he's with it he is adamant he wants to stay in his home, when he's confused he accuses us of all sorts (like stealing from him) to the point that we will not enter the house when he's not there, and we won't accept any money from him for stuff we buy, or even pocket money he used to give the kids.
What happens when they become incapable of making sensible decisions? Her mum went down hill very quickly
When he's with it he is adamant he wants to stay in his home, when he's confused he accuses us of all sorts (like stealing from him) to the point that we will not enter the house when he's not there, and we won't accept any money from him for stuff we buy, or even pocket money he used to give the kids.
What happens when they become incapable of making sensible decisions? Her mum went down hill very quickly
A POA needs to be signed by the subject it is essentially their agreement that when they are no longer able to make decisions for themselves that the 2 potential POA's (financial and health) can be enacted with permission I believe of the Court of Protection. whilst they are still able to make their own decisions there i.e they have capacity there is nothing you can do without their agreement. If they' don't have capacity then you're too late (as it takes about 6 months to arrange).
The way we sold it to my Mum was to ask her whether when the time comes she wants decisions made on her behalf by strangers or by people who love her.
You need to involve Social Services I'm afraid. If they are a danger to themselves it's likely they will take action as they wont want to be responsible for a death or injury if they take no action!
The way we sold it to my Mum was to ask her whether when the time comes she wants decisions made on her behalf by strangers or by people who love her.
You need to involve Social Services I'm afraid. If they are a danger to themselves it's likely they will take action as they wont want to be responsible for a death or injury if they take no action!
Edited by elanfan on Thursday 22 October 21:05
you need professional advice asap.
i went through this, though i'm a little rusty now on the details.
For a start a POA is (was) pretty useless, you're really referring to an Enduring POA. It's too late if dementia has been formally diagnosed or been strongly indicated and you're looking to obtain a guardianship order. You need to talk to Social Services soon, but i would counsel you talk to a good family solicitor FIRST.
i went through this, though i'm a little rusty now on the details.
For a start a POA is (was) pretty useless, you're really referring to an Enduring POA. It's too late if dementia has been formally diagnosed or been strongly indicated and you're looking to obtain a guardianship order. You need to talk to Social Services soon, but i would counsel you talk to a good family solicitor FIRST.
You can apply to the Office of the Public Guardian for Lasting Power of Attorney (LPA) for both 'Property and Financial Affairs' and 'Health and Welfare' (there are two forms). The procedure is very simple, you fill the forms in and send them back by post with the relevent fees (about £200 each IIRC but free if you're on a low income).
The only problem is the 'donor', as your relative is called ,must not only agree to it but must also be 'compus mentis' at the time of signing. Many people, particularly when dealing with dementia sufferers, leave it too late for this easy route which only leaves an application to the Court of Protection which is much more complicated.
The only problem is the 'donor', as your relative is called ,must not only agree to it but must also be 'compus mentis' at the time of signing. Many people, particularly when dealing with dementia sufferers, leave it too late for this easy route which only leaves an application to the Court of Protection which is much more complicated.
We don't need financial control as such, its the ability to make decisions about care. Her Dad will not listen to reason. Her mum needs 24hr care.
About 6 months ago her Dad was taken into hospital with a heart attack. Her Mum (not then diagnosed with dementia) was on her own. We went over at 10pm to make sure she was going to be ok, my wife checked her at 8am before going to work and all was ok. My wife then went back the at lunchtime and she had fallen and hit her head. She had been lying in a huge pool of blood for a few hours! She then spent weeks in hospital.
Social services are already involved due to the daily care they need. We will speak to them.
Her father will never hand over any control by choice.
About 6 months ago her Dad was taken into hospital with a heart attack. Her Mum (not then diagnosed with dementia) was on her own. We went over at 10pm to make sure she was going to be ok, my wife checked her at 8am before going to work and all was ok. My wife then went back the at lunchtime and she had fallen and hit her head. She had been lying in a huge pool of blood for a few hours! She then spent weeks in hospital.
Social services are already involved due to the daily care they need. We will speak to them.
Her father will never hand over any control by choice.
98elise said:
Her father will never hand over any control by choice.
We went several years thinking this with my wife's dad. He was adamant that he could cope and that he would not allow his wife to go into care. We watched as he lost almost all his freedom and social life and became a 24hour carer, aged 78, with a heart condition. We've finally made some progress recently and now wife's mum is in an Alzheimer's care home where social services are reviewing whether she can, or should go home. This is (we hope) a formality - she can't even speak any more much less care for even her most basic of needs.
Thing is, dementia has physical as well as psychological impacts. Incontinence is quite common. Being blunt, if his wife starts s
tting the bed every night, his opinion might change about the whole thing. Dementia is the most cruel illness, robs you of your loved one but leaves a shadow of that person behind to remind you of what you have lost.
Good luck, I wish you the best and it's good that you have the best interests of them at heart, regardless of what the old boy thinks.
From what I have read on your circumstances, there may be a question about the mental capacity of either or both of your wifes parents that may mean that you will not be able (legally) to raise an LPA for Health & Welfare or Property and affairs. During the process of creating these documents there needs to be a 'certificate provider' (not the appointed attorneys) that is legally bound to make sure the 'donor' fully understands what they are signing and the consequences of this act, before signing themselves to confirm such action has been properly conducted. The latest version of the LPA forms has been somewhat watered down in wording, which in my opinion is a retrograde step. I could go on, but should there be any doubt about mental capacity within the context of parents signing these documents, I strongly suggest you take legal advice, or ring the Office of the Public Guardian for help on this.
You can, apply to the OPG for what they call 'deputyship' should there be any doubt about capacity, so all is not lost, which is a similar process, however it is the Court of Protection that will review your request. Ultimately if everything is straightforward you would be issued a registration.
There is more to this that I will not add here, but you can PM me if you like...
You can, apply to the OPG for what they call 'deputyship' should there be any doubt about capacity, so all is not lost, which is a similar process, however it is the Court of Protection that will review your request. Ultimately if everything is straightforward you would be issued a registration.
There is more to this that I will not add here, but you can PM me if you like...
3Dee said:
From what I have read on your circumstances, there may be a question about the mental capacity of either or both of your wifes parents that may mean that you will not be able (legally) to raise an LPA for Health & Welfare or Property and affairs. During the process of creating these documents there needs to be a 'certificate provider' (not the appointed attorneys) that is legally bound to make sure the 'donor' fully understands what they are signing and the consequences of this act, before signing themselves to confirm such action has been properly conducted. The latest version of the LPA forms has been somewhat watered down in wording, which in my opinion is a retrograde step. I could go on, but should there be any doubt about mental capacity within the context of parents signing these documents, I strongly suggest you take legal advice, or ring the Office of the Public Guardian for help on this.
You can, apply to the OPG for what they call 'deputyship' should there be any doubt about capacity, so all is not lost, which is a similar process, however it is the Court of Protection that will review your request. Ultimately if everything is straightforward you would be issued a registration.
There is more to this that I will not add here, but you can PM me if you like...
This - all day long this.You can, apply to the OPG for what they call 'deputyship' should there be any doubt about capacity, so all is not lost, which is a similar process, however it is the Court of Protection that will review your request. Ultimately if everything is straightforward you would be issued a registration.
There is more to this that I will not add here, but you can PM me if you like...
An LPA is what you probably practically need, but the time for executing one of these may, unfortunately, have passed. It's very hard to judge in person, let alone on the internet, but if there are question marks it sounds as if any certificate provider would have issues. 3Dee is probably (certainly) more experienced than me though.
Robert Elise said:
For a start a POA is (was) pretty useless, you're really referring to an Enduring POA. .
The Enduring Power of Attorney no longer exists, it has been replaced by the Lasting Power of Attorney as linked above. Also as stated, there are two to choose from, the property and financial LPA, as well as the health and welfare LPA.Having recently used this a few months ago, I can say that the process of creating an LPA is very straight forward. Once they have been created by following the online website tools, they can be printed of and signed/witnessed accordingly.
The important thing to note is that they are not ‘enforceable’ at this time. Once they have been created they will need to be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian to become and officially recognised document. This will also include 6 week waiting period where objections can be raised by others.
There is a fee for this (per LPA), but this can be reduced or waived in certain circumstances.
At the end of this the LPA(s) will be returned with their official stamps to show they are a legal document.
However – this does not mean that they are in force. They can only be brought into play when either the person named requests it (generally for the financial LPA), or when they are deemed to no longer have the mental capacity to make decisions for themselves, which could result in them coming to harm or have a detrimental effect on their standard of life (diet, hygiene ect).
The above sounds to me like an important point for your father-in-law!
With regard to having them agree to and sign the LPA, if you genuinely believe that it is in their best interest to have them in place, then I would suggest that you consider creating the documents and then explain them clearly with a view to having them sign. However keep in mind that they will need to be judged as having the mental capacity to understand what they are signing and this will also need to be witnessed and countersigned as such. We used relatives GP for this who independently discussed the implications of the LPA with them to ensure they fully understood what and why they were signing.
We achieved this, despite the relative having been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. Provided that they are still at times able to think clearly enough understand what they are signing and its implications then this should not be a problem. The key will be having them sign whilst being witnessed when they are judged to have the mental capacity to understand and comprehend what they are doing at that point in time.
It is crucial that you try to complete the above process with the in-laws as soon as possible (given the circumstances you describe). You may however find that it is too late with your mother-in-law depending on the severity of her condition.
We managed to complete both LPAs just in the nick of time, shortly afterwards the relative was moved out of sheltered accommodation and into secure residential dementia care due to their worsening condition, and is now also under a deprivation of liberty order perused by the social services.
Taking control of their financial fairs was an extremely smooth process with the LPA’s in place, a copy was simply sent to the relevant persons/banks etc and control assumed. This could not have been achieved so easily without them.
Inkyfingers said:
Yes, you should look into getting power of attorney ASAP.
The longer you leave it, the more difficult things will become.
as once their Mental capacity is in serious question they cannot consent to the Power of attorney so it has to be done through the Court of Protection as a Deputy ...The longer you leave it, the more difficult things will become.
Edited by mph1977 on Friday 23 October 11:31
98elise said:
The thing is there is no way her Dad will agree to it.
When he's with it he is adamant he wants to stay in his home, when he's confused he accuses us of all sorts (like stealing from him) to the point that we will not enter the house when he's not there, and we won't accept any money from him for stuff we buy, or even pocket money he used to give the kids.
What happens when they become incapable of making sensible decisions? Her mum went down hill very quickly
might be at he point where a PoA is question if made now , without a lot of work to prove capacity ... When he's with it he is adamant he wants to stay in his home, when he's confused he accuses us of all sorts (like stealing from him) to the point that we will not enter the house when he's not there, and we won't accept any money from him for stuff we buy, or even pocket money he used to give the kids.
What happens when they become incapable of making sensible decisions? Her mum went down hill very quickly
Ken Figenus said:
Great advice here guys. My initial approach (in our case) is going to be to ask his doctor to countersign the application. If there are any reservations there then we will step up and consult a solicitor.
Yes! great idea to involve a medical professional in your case, although I may add that some will make a charge (which is fine if you are advised of such prior to the work being conducted), but others in my experience sometimes either refuse or get very difficult on complying with the request. I am not having a pop at the profession, as there are many good ones around. The fact is that a GP is exactly what it says on the can... A General practitioner, and not necessarily an 'expert' in the field of Mental Health or the legislation surrounding this, so don't be surprised. Over 15 years, I have seen my fair share of GP's who have absolutely no clue on determining mental capacity, nor any understanding of the MCA (Mental Capacity Act 2005). That, notwithstanding, do go and see if the family's GP will do this for you, cos this may make your task that much easier.
If this becomes an issue, then there are some other avenues:
1. Go find a legal practitioner that has a track history of working with Mental Capacity cases - he might provide a certificate
2. if still issues, then go ring the OPG - In fact I encourage you to ring them anyway - they are really good (I find in most cases) and will talk through your options for free.
3. Talk to the OPG about the procedure for your wife to be appointed as her mum & dads appointed deputy (are there any other siblings that may want to, or should be involved?)
Do go and check out all the useful info on this site:
https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/make-lasting-...
then this one on deputyship:
https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy
One thought though! Be prepared for a fairly long and drawn out process! Generally the OPG will process a standard LPA (with no issues involved) in 8-16 weeks (the latter is more common), depending on their workload at the time...sometimes longer. So do try to look at backstop options or plans you might be able to engineer if problems come up in the interim. Unfortunately you cannot legally insist on getting involved with Banks, utility companies, Local authorities etc if there is any suggesting that mum or dad may be losing capacity, so bear this in mind!
As for deputyship, this can take a fair bit longer, and I am afraid as a general rule, the OPG don't tend to respond quicker to 'urgent cases' as you might think, even if you keep chasing!
For anyone reading all this, there is a message in here that maybe should be taken on-board! Get LPA's done (and registered) as early as possible, cos you never know when you might need them. (bit like insurance really).
As a further point might be worth mentioning is that even though an LPA is registered, whilst the Donor has capacity, they (the Donor) remain in control or their affairs... ie. they are able to dictate when and what help they need, if they need it. There is no automatic right of the appointed attorney to go do what they like without the permission or request from the Donor! ..and the purpose of the registration? To make sure that the OPG formally KNOW who the the Attorneys are for any Donor! So be warned... any nefarious activity could be reported and acted upon. This gives a certain amount of protection backup for the Donor.
Good luck, and hope it works out well for you.
Edited by 3Dee on Friday 23 October 11:50
3Dee said:
Yes! great idea to involve a medical professional in your case, although I may add that some will make a charge (which is fine if you are advised of such prior to the work being conducted), but others in my experience sometimes either refuse or get very difficult on complying with the request. I am not having a pop at the profession, as there are many good ones around. The fact is that a GP is exactly what it says on the can... A General practitioner, and not necessarily an 'expert' in the field of Mental Health or the legislation surrounding this, so don't be surprised. Over 15 years, I have seen my fair share of GP's who have absolutely no clue on determining mental capacity, nor any understanding of the MCA (Mental Capacity Act 2005).
I would hope / expect by now that most GP's should be comfortable dealing with mental capacity assessments, it's just that for a lot of GP's its not worth their time in doing so - this is not an NHS funded service, and can be a long process.3dee said:
That, notwithstanding, do go and see if the family's GP will do this for you, cos this may make your task that much easier.
If this becomes an issue, then there are some other avenues:
1. Go find a legal practitioner that has a track history of working with Mental Capacity cases - he might provide a certificate
2. if still issues, then go ring the OPG - In fact I encourage you to ring them anyway - they are really good (I find in most cases) and will talk through your options for free.
3. Talk to the OPG about the procedure for your wife to be appointed as her mum & dads appointed deputy (are there any other siblings that may want to, or should be involved?)
Do go and check out all the useful info on this site:
https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/make-lasting-...
then this one on deputyship:
https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy
One thought though! Be prepared for a fairly long and drawn out process! Generally the OPG will process a standard LPA (with no issues involved) in 8-16 weeks (the latter is more common), depending on their workload at the time...sometimes longer. So do try to look at backstop options or plans you might be able to engineer if problems come up in the interim. Unfortunately you cannot legally insist on getting involved with Banks, utility companies, Local authorities etc if there is any suggesting that mum or dad may be losing capacity, so bear this in mind!
As for deputyship, this can take a fair bit longer, and I am afraid as a general rule, the OPG don't tend to respond quicker to 'urgent cases' as you might think, even if you keep chasing!
For anyone reading all this, there is a message in here that maybe should be taken on-board! Get LPA's done (and registered) as early as possible, cos you never know when you might need them. (bit like insurance really).
As a further point might be worth mentioning is that even though an LPA is registered, whilst the Donor has capacity, they (the Donor) remain in control or their affairs... ie. they are able to dictate when and what help they need, if they need it. There is no automatic right of the appointed attorney to go do what they like without the permission or request from the Donor! ..and the purpose of the registration? To make sure that the OPG formally KNOW who the the Attorneys are for any Donor! So be warned... any nefarious activity could be reported and acted upon. This gives a certain amount of protection backup for the Donor.
This bit is really important, an LPA does not mean you can over rule a decision made if the individual still has capacity. Also a point to note is that an unwise decision, or a decision you don't agree with doesn't mean that the individual lacks capacity to make that decision, consequently it doesn't give you the right to over rule their decision. Also be aware that capacity is a complex matter, it is time and situation specific, and you can not apply a blanket "they don't have capacity anymore" to any one. For example, someone may not have the capacity to manage their finances, but they have capacity to decide what they want for dessert.If this becomes an issue, then there are some other avenues:
1. Go find a legal practitioner that has a track history of working with Mental Capacity cases - he might provide a certificate
2. if still issues, then go ring the OPG - In fact I encourage you to ring them anyway - they are really good (I find in most cases) and will talk through your options for free.
3. Talk to the OPG about the procedure for your wife to be appointed as her mum & dads appointed deputy (are there any other siblings that may want to, or should be involved?)
Do go and check out all the useful info on this site:
https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/make-lasting-...
then this one on deputyship:
https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy
One thought though! Be prepared for a fairly long and drawn out process! Generally the OPG will process a standard LPA (with no issues involved) in 8-16 weeks (the latter is more common), depending on their workload at the time...sometimes longer. So do try to look at backstop options or plans you might be able to engineer if problems come up in the interim. Unfortunately you cannot legally insist on getting involved with Banks, utility companies, Local authorities etc if there is any suggesting that mum or dad may be losing capacity, so bear this in mind!
As for deputyship, this can take a fair bit longer, and I am afraid as a general rule, the OPG don't tend to respond quicker to 'urgent cases' as you might think, even if you keep chasing!
For anyone reading all this, there is a message in here that maybe should be taken on-board! Get LPA's done (and registered) as early as possible, cos you never know when you might need them. (bit like insurance really).
As a further point might be worth mentioning is that even though an LPA is registered, whilst the Donor has capacity, they (the Donor) remain in control or their affairs... ie. they are able to dictate when and what help they need, if they need it. There is no automatic right of the appointed attorney to go do what they like without the permission or request from the Donor! ..and the purpose of the registration? To make sure that the OPG formally KNOW who the the Attorneys are for any Donor! So be warned... any nefarious activity could be reported and acted upon. This gives a certain amount of protection backup for the Donor.
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