insurance scam - can they do this
Discussion
Its renewal time so I am ringing around for quotes. Currently with Groupama (through Nowell & Richards) who quoted £600 renewal on my 94reg 968cab. Ive got 5yrs protected NCB with the wife as a named driver.
I had to declare that my wife had made a claim on HER insurance policy (also full protected NCB). Result - groupama refused point blank to offer me renewal terms.
SO here's my gripe. Ive been paying a premium to protect my NCB with Groupama. Theyve taken my money. Without that protection the last premium would have been about £70 less. But Groupama's stated modus operandi, apparently, is not to offer policies to anyone who has made a claim. because a claim has been made by my wife, not on my policy but on hers, they wont renew. So how can a company contract to provide a protected NCB if, by definition, they refuse to reinsure any policy on which a claim is made????? whats the point in protecting a policy if, by using it, you negate the possibility of continuing that policy?
any leagle eagles out there have a view?
I had to declare that my wife had made a claim on HER insurance policy (also full protected NCB). Result - groupama refused point blank to offer me renewal terms.
SO here's my gripe. Ive been paying a premium to protect my NCB with Groupama. Theyve taken my money. Without that protection the last premium would have been about £70 less. But Groupama's stated modus operandi, apparently, is not to offer policies to anyone who has made a claim. because a claim has been made by my wife, not on my policy but on hers, they wont renew. So how can a company contract to provide a protected NCB if, by definition, they refuse to reinsure any policy on which a claim is made????? whats the point in protecting a policy if, by using it, you negate the possibility of continuing that policy?
any leagle eagles out there have a view?
Sorry, not a legal eagle. However, this does seem slightly proposterous. The reason being that I know from experience that few other insurers are willing to take on a NCD protected by someone else if you have an accident. Therefore, if no-one else will take it on, and they refuse to re-insure you, is there any point to protecting NCD?!!
exactly my point! the lass at Nowell & Richards didnt seem to grasp it, and I ended up wondering if I was being unreasonable, stupid or both. but protecting your NCD with a company only obliges THAT company to keep your NCD the same, not any other. so if your stated aim is to refuse reinsurance after any claim, how can you at the same time sell NCD protection?
It gets worse. I had my no claims protected on the wrx when some scrotes tried to nick it, no problem I thought NCB is still ok.
Come renewall time masive hike in premium. I ask why because I shouldnt have lost any NCB.
Answer thats right sir you still have full NCB but you have now extra loading on you rpolicy because youve had a claim so your more of a risk.
Can anyone out there explain to me the point? has anyone had good experience of haveing NCB protected?
Would this be allowed to go on in any other country?
Come renewall time masive hike in premium. I ask why because I shouldnt have lost any NCB.
Answer thats right sir you still have full NCB but you have now extra loading on you rpolicy because youve had a claim so your more of a risk.
Can anyone out there explain to me the point? has anyone had good experience of haveing NCB protected?
Would this be allowed to go on in any other country?
I posted this before, but was somewhat shot-down because of it. My mother used to work for a Very large insurer and her opinion was that protecting your NCD was rarely worth it if you worked out the costs over several years.
Protecting your NCD is simply that - at the end of the insurance period you will retain a piece of paper showing the same number of years NCD as when you started, regardless of any claims. However it does not mean you don't need to declare any claims made, and it does not mean that the insurer can't load your premium or even refuse to insure (as in this case) on the basis of that claim.
In this case, because the NCD which is protected is on your policy, and the claim was made on another, then the fact that you have protected NCD is entirely irrelevant.
>> Edited by GreigM on Thursday 10th February 09:26
Protecting your NCD is simply that - at the end of the insurance period you will retain a piece of paper showing the same number of years NCD as when you started, regardless of any claims. However it does not mean you don't need to declare any claims made, and it does not mean that the insurer can't load your premium or even refuse to insure (as in this case) on the basis of that claim.
In this case, because the NCD which is protected is on your policy, and the claim was made on another, then the fact that you have protected NCD is entirely irrelevant.
>> Edited by GreigM on Thursday 10th February 09:26
pesty said:
Answer thats right sir you still have full NCB but you have now extra loading on you rpolicy because youve had a claim so your more of a risk.
Its a racket allright, but did you really expect anything less? Had you not protected your NCB, you'd have had a loading and less NCB, so the hike would have been even worse!
softinthehead said:
ive no doubt the small print contains a get-out clause somewwhere, but I still amintain that selling someone a product that you know in advance they cant use is at best sharp practice, at worst fraudulent.
I think I will complain to the onmbudsman, if only to get it off my chest
PLaying devils advocate here.....the product you paid for was a 'protected no-claims bonus', not a protected 'right to be insured by this company'. I can see why you feel sour, but the insurance company has no obligation to insure you again., just as you have no obligation to use them again.
Yes they can. A NCB or NCD is a voluntary discount that the insurance company gives you. It has nothing to do with base premium, premium weighting or whether they will quote you at renewal. An insurance company has no obligation to give you a quote at renewal (although commonly this is good business practice)... what if the insurance company no longer decides to sell motor insurance? or, like Independent, goes into receivership? or just changes their underwriting policy (which sounds like has happened in your case)?
It gets confusing because Nowell and Richards aren't the insurance company taking the risk but are the insurance broker (in theory they could be acting as insurance agents/intermediary). They should be acting on your behalf to get you the best terms though.
In this case, although you say you are being "refused" renewal terms that is a very strong term (and declarable on insurance applications). Were they the words actually used and was it received in writing? They can however "not quote" you, which is subtly (but importantly) different.
When you wife had her accident and when you told them about it could be material.
MC
It gets confusing because Nowell and Richards aren't the insurance company taking the risk but are the insurance broker (in theory they could be acting as insurance agents/intermediary). They should be acting on your behalf to get you the best terms though.
In this case, although you say you are being "refused" renewal terms that is a very strong term (and declarable on insurance applications). Were they the words actually used and was it received in writing? They can however "not quote" you, which is subtly (but importantly) different.
When you wife had her accident and when you told them about it could be material.
MC
Insurance companies are a business that accepts a risk into a pool of money. They can offer you cover, not offer you cover, or alter the terms to suit the risk. They don't have to accept you. Insurance contracts are unique in law.
Don't bother trying to take them on. They are entirely justified to load your wife if she has had an accident. It may be unfair to you, but that's how it is.
I put my 911 on my business policy last year. Just found out at renewal it's not insured between 10pm and 6am unless it's garaged at home!
You're better of knowing this stuff, as pre-warned is pre-armed, as they say!
Don't bother trying to take them on. They are entirely justified to load your wife if she has had an accident. It may be unfair to you, but that's how it is.
I put my 911 on my business policy last year. Just found out at renewal it's not insured between 10pm and 6am unless it's garaged at home!
You're better of knowing this stuff, as pre-warned is pre-armed, as they say!
all points taken on board and digested. my beef is this - according to N&R this company, Groupama, offers competitive pricing because they refuse as a matter of policy not to take any drivers with a claims history. this has been the case for many years, and was certainly so when I paid for the protected NCB. thats ok - they can do as they like
i have no issue with premiums being loaded. I accept that I am now higher risk. but is it not the case that once a policy is in force, I can make as many valid claims as I like during the policy period and the insurer is obliged to cover me, and cannot ask for any more money. I dont know Ive never claimed before. can an insurer ask for more money midway through a policy if you make a claim? if as I suspect not, then the only potential for a hike comes at renewal time.
Groupama sold me a protected NCB. the only time this is relevant is at renewal. but they knew in advance that if I claimed I would automatically exclude myself from renewal.so they sold me a product knowing in advance that i couldnt possibly benefit from it. If they dont want to reinsure me then fine. but dont sell me protected NCB then!
the real irony here is that my wife's insurer paid without quibble, happily honoured the NCB protection and renewed without fuss. its a shame but they dont competitively insure porsche
>> Edited by softinthehead on Thursday 10th February 10:52
i have no issue with premiums being loaded. I accept that I am now higher risk. but is it not the case that once a policy is in force, I can make as many valid claims as I like during the policy period and the insurer is obliged to cover me, and cannot ask for any more money. I dont know Ive never claimed before. can an insurer ask for more money midway through a policy if you make a claim? if as I suspect not, then the only potential for a hike comes at renewal time.
Groupama sold me a protected NCB. the only time this is relevant is at renewal. but they knew in advance that if I claimed I would automatically exclude myself from renewal.so they sold me a product knowing in advance that i couldnt possibly benefit from it. If they dont want to reinsure me then fine. but dont sell me protected NCB then!
the real irony here is that my wife's insurer paid without quibble, happily honoured the NCB protection and renewed without fuss. its a shame but they dont competitively insure porsche
>> Edited by softinthehead on Thursday 10th February 10:52
softinthehead said:
Groupama sold me a protected NCB. the only time this is relevant is at renewal. but they knew in advance that if I claimed I would automatically exclude myself from renewal.so they sold me a product knowing in advance that i couldnt possibly benefit from it. If they dont want to reinsure me then fine. but dont sell me protected NCB then!
That's not true you could have benefited from it, but only if you make a claim. If you had claimed, then you can renew with any other company using you full 5 years no claims bonus, as opposed to the 3 years you would have had without the protection (had you claimed). All other things being equal, you will get cheaper premiums for 5 years over 3 years NCB.
leosayer said:
Groupama sold me a protected NCB. the only time this is relevant is at renewal. but they knew in advance that if I claimed I would automatically exclude myself from renewal.so they sold me a product knowing in advance that i couldnt possibly benefit from it. If they dont want to reinsure me then fine. but dont sell me protected NCB then!
That's not true you could have benefited from it, but only if you make a claim. If you had claimed, then you can renew with any other company using you full 5 years no claims bonus, as opposed to the 3 years you would have had without the protection (had you claimed). All other things being equal, you will get cheaper premiums for 5 years over 3 years NCB.
That isn't correct. A protected NCB is not honoured if you then insure with another company. If you make a claim and you have a protected NCB, then yes with that company you would have 5 years (or whatever) NCB.
Should you change companies, the claim you had with the previous company (and protected NCB) WILL be taken into account and your NCB will be cut by the apporopriate amount by the new company.
Conclusion: Protected NCB only valid with the issuing company and won't be recognised by another company if you had a claim.
leosayer said:
Groupama sold me a protected NCB. the only time this is relevant is at renewal. but they knew in advance that if I claimed I would automatically exclude myself from renewal.so they sold me a product knowing in advance that i couldnt possibly benefit from it. If they dont want to reinsure me then fine. but dont sell me protected NCB then!
That's not true you could have benefited from it, but only if you make a claim. If you had claimed, then you can renew with any other company using you full 5 years no claims bonus, as opposed to the 3 years you would have had without the protection (had you claimed). All other things being equal, you will get cheaper premiums for 5 years over 3 years NCB.
Leo, not quite right, protected NCB is only of use at the current insurer, therefore they have received money for something of no value. I would definitely take it up with the ombudsman.
Let's face it... NCB/NCD are outdated terms.
Insurance companies are relatively sophisticated... what they actually do in practise is calculate the premium they want from you first. You say you have full NCB and want 60% discount. They gross up the premium by 100/60 then give you the 60% discount... hey presto they get the premium they wanted and you get the satisfaction of having a 60% discount (it's a psychological selling point)... it's not rocket science!
Same goes with insurance groups... absolutely meaningless but gives purchasers of new cars some idea of how much premium they'd have to pay relative to other cars.
MC
Insurance companies are relatively sophisticated... what they actually do in practise is calculate the premium they want from you first. You say you have full NCB and want 60% discount. They gross up the premium by 100/60 then give you the 60% discount... hey presto they get the premium they wanted and you get the satisfaction of having a 60% discount (it's a psychological selling point)... it's not rocket science!
Same goes with insurance groups... absolutely meaningless but gives purchasers of new cars some idea of how much premium they'd have to pay relative to other cars.
MC
pdV6 said:
Answer thats right sir you still have full NCB but you have now extra loading on you rpolicy because youve had a claim so your more of a risk.
Its a racket allright, but did you really expect anything less? Had you not protected your NCB, you'd have had a loading and less NCB, so the hike would have been even worse!
Yes PDV I understand that and yes you are correct but only if you stay with that company .perhaps I didnt fully explain. I had to go to another insurer anyway because the hike was so much.
Because I used another Insurer I couldnt keep my full no claims as that only applied if I stayed.
so in my case having NCB protection was a complete waste of time.
It also made no sense whatsoever for them. they paid me out some money then lost my future contributions. very strange way to run a company.
With an NCB you pay an upfront premium to prevent the insurance company to increase their premium on the basis that you have had a claim against it. It is not more complicated than this. The fact that you have made an insurance claim is not changed by having an NCB protection. Consequently your NCB protection only works if you stay with the same insurer. Another insurer will still asses your risk based on the fact that you have made a claim against your previous insurance company regardless of a NCB protection.
MajorClanger said:
Insurance companies are relatively sophisticated... what they actually do in practise is calculate the premium they want from you first. You say you have full NCB and want 60% discount. They gross up the premium by 100/60 then give you the 60% discount... hey presto they get the premium they wanted and you get the satisfaction of having a 60% discount (it's a psychological selling point)... it's not rocket science!
MC
??? if I didn't have the ncd then I wouldn't get the discount, so I am better of with the ncb surely?
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff