buying used speed six engined tvrs?
Discussion
are there any non speed six engined tvr owners out there that would consider buying a tuscan/tamora/t350 second hand if it could be purchased with a warranty that covered any engine issues up to the full cost of the repair, with the option to renew that warranty when it expired.Just something myself and another well known indie have been discussing any feed back would be helpfull
cheers andy(APM Automotive)
cheers andy(APM Automotive)
APMAUTO said:
are there any non speed six engined tvr owners out there that would consider buying a tuscan/tamora/t350 second hand if it could be purchased with a warranty that covered any engine issues up to the full cost of the repair, with the option to renew that warranty when it expired.Just something myself and another well known indie have been discussing any feed back would be helpfull
cheers andy(APM Automotive)
I guess it depends if you were going to put then right aswell. Even if the company pay's up, if the only place is the factoy or Power to put them right, your still looking at 3-4 month turn round...
So, if its a warrenty and rebuild, you might get a good responce
Yes, depending upon the exact nature of the warranty and its cost.
The only thing preventing me form purchasing a Tuscan or T350 is nagging doubt over the engine reliability, so decent cover might make the difference.
What we really need, though, is TVR themselves to put their money where their mouth is and underwrite their confidence in Speed 6 reliability with a proper factory engine warranty.
The only thing preventing me form purchasing a Tuscan or T350 is nagging doubt over the engine reliability, so decent cover might make the difference.
What we really need, though, is TVR themselves to put their money where their mouth is and underwrite their confidence in Speed 6 reliability with a proper factory engine warranty.
I really like the look of the tamora and it would be the natural upgrade for me from my SEAC. However the thought of owning a speed six has me put off for the forseeable future. Not just the cost of engine repairs, but the potntial away time for rebuild and also the gross depreciaton that will hit you once purchased - presumably mostly as a result of the engine reliability.
And of course a I just couldn't live without the SEAC
And of course a I just couldn't live without the SEAC
APMAUTO said:
are there any non speed six engined tvr owners out there that would consider buying a tuscan/tamora/t350 second hand if it could be purchased with a warranty that covered any engine issues up to the full cost of the repair, with the option to renew that warranty when it expired.Just something myself and another well known indie have been discussing any feed back would be helpfull
cheers andy(APM Automotive)
Yes, definately. Though it'd have to have a decent turnaround time and not an overly restrictive mileage. i.e cover all cars upto 60k miles or something.
How much, ball park, were you thinking? 1k, 2?
D
redwedge5 said:
...the thought of owning a speed six has me put off for the forseeable future. Not just the cost of engine repairs, but the potntial away time for rebuild and also the gross depreciaton that will hit you once purchased - presumably mostly as a result of the engine reliability....
Spot on.
I'd go so far as to say that this is the make or break problem that Moleskins has to crack if he wants the company to survive.
Perceived engine reliability is murdering residual values of the S6 engined cars, so you'd have to be a rabid enthusiast to purchase new, in the knowledge that the car might have lost 30% of its value just a year down the line.
It's probably not fair on TVR - the S6 is a high performance, niche market engine after all - but to rebuild faith in the car people need to be confident that the engine is good for 100K miles.
A good private warranty would be nice, but what we really need is the factory to stand up and say 'we are now confident that we have cracked any remaining reliability/design/quality control issues with the S6 engine and to prove it we are willing to give a warranty for 75K miles (or whatever), exluding track use'.
Yes, I know that this is more than any manufacturer of similar performance engines would be willing to give, but having suffered so much damage to their reputation, TVR are going to have to go above and beyond the norm to prove themselves.
Martin_S said:
What we really need, though, is TVR themselves to put their money where their mouth is and underwrite their confidence in Speed 6 reliability with a proper factory engine warranty.
Completely agree with you there - but they must have no inclination to do so at the moment, as the Sp 6 rebuilding side of their business must be a nice regular income stream for them.
I know people with MGF's who are part of a large class action law suit against MG, as there is clearly a problem with their engines that leads to regular rebuilds.
I'm surprised nothing similar has happened with TVR, as it might actualy make them sit up and take notice.
I think I'll be getting a second hand t350 later in the year, so a full engine warranty would be very attractive.
The only question would be if the warranty is dependant on the car being serviced at APM/other indie or whether another TVR dealer would be able to claim on it (due to the fact my TVR dealer is 10 mins down the road from me).
The only question would be if the warranty is dependant on the car being serviced at APM/other indie or whether another TVR dealer would be able to claim on it (due to the fact my TVR dealer is 10 mins down the road from me).
Andy
This would certainly make moving to a speed 6 more of a proposition for me .. at the moment - there is no way I would do this.
I'd like to give the current game a name - Russian Roulette.. with a 5~6K bullet.
As much as I love TVR's - even I cannot accept that.
Any moves by indies like your selves have got to help with getting confidence back into the market.
I would also add - that the speed 6 engined cars seem to now have industry standard depreciation .. ie 50% in 3 years
example pay 45k for T350c in 2002 ... it's now worth 25k~28K.
Edited to add: how much do you think this 'engine warrenty' would cost .. from memory my Griff 500 yearly warrenty was about £500 or £750 for 2 years..
>> Edited by rev-erend on Thursday 10th February 12:09
This would certainly make moving to a speed 6 more of a proposition for me .. at the moment - there is no way I would do this.
I'd like to give the current game a name - Russian Roulette.. with a 5~6K bullet.
As much as I love TVR's - even I cannot accept that.
Any moves by indies like your selves have got to help with getting confidence back into the market.
I would also add - that the speed 6 engined cars seem to now have industry standard depreciation .. ie 50% in 3 years
example pay 45k for T350c in 2002 ... it's now worth 25k~28K.
Edited to add: how much do you think this 'engine warrenty' would cost .. from memory my Griff 500 yearly warrenty was about £500 or £750 for 2 years..
>> Edited by rev-erend on Thursday 10th February 12:09
rev-erend said:
Andy
This would certainly make moving to a speed 6 more of a proposition for me .. at the moment - there is no way I would do this.
I'd like to give the current game a name - Russian Roulette.. with a 5~6K bullet.
As much as I love TVR's - even I cannot accept that.
Any moves by indies like your selves have got to help with getting confidence back into the market.
I would also add - that the speed 6 engined cars seem to now have industry standard depreciation .. ie 50% in 3 years
example pay 45k for T350c in 2002 ... it's now worth 25k~28K.
Edited to add: how much do you think this 'engine warrenty' would cost .. from memory my Griff 500 yearly warrenty was about £500 or £750 for 2 years..
>> Edited by rev-erend on Thursday 10th February 12:09
Alan,
If you paid full list for a 38K car and stuck 7K extras on it, expect to looose the value of the extras and then depreciation. Given the loss of the extras, a 38K car that looses 9K in two years is pretty much the norm I would say - nothing exceptional at all.
Speed 6 engines now come with a 2 year warranty,and at least one dealer is considering adding a year onto this.
Considering the state of tune of the engine, the build numbers and the selling price V competition this is a step in the right direction for TVR and should be supported.
Although not out of the woods yet there is some hope that the bulk of the problems are behind the Speed6,both 350 bhp versions and S spec Tuscans.
The new owner is commited to quality not just by words but by actions-e.g the delay of the Tuscan II and Sagaris. ( Which of course has been whinged about as well.)
Diplomat mode ON
If you are worried about resale values of TVR's,might it be possible that we are as responsible for depressing these values as the manufacturer by consistently raiseing old problems despite some evidense of improvement?
Diplomat mode OFF
I suggest you look at the evidense onjectively
and make a call.
Considering the state of tune of the engine, the build numbers and the selling price V competition this is a step in the right direction for TVR and should be supported.
Although not out of the woods yet there is some hope that the bulk of the problems are behind the Speed6,both 350 bhp versions and S spec Tuscans.
The new owner is commited to quality not just by words but by actions-e.g the delay of the Tuscan II and Sagaris. ( Which of course has been whinged about as well.)
Diplomat mode ON
If you are worried about resale values of TVR's,might it be possible that we are as responsible for depressing these values as the manufacturer by consistently raiseing old problems despite some evidense of improvement?
Diplomat mode OFF
I suggest you look at the evidense onjectively
and make a call.
In answer to the original quesion, DEFINITELY. I currently own a Griff and in a years time I'm either going to modify the car extensively, or sell it and buy a Tuscan. However, whereas I could just about stretch to affording the car, I wouldn't be able to then pay for engine problems running into thousand of pounds . Ultimately this is what puts me off and it's probably a very common situation!
One point that was clear from the survey done in he Tuscan S6 forum, and backed up by anecdotal experience in the T350/Tamora/Sagaris forum..... there have been very few issues with S6 engines from 2002 onwards. Some of these have done relatively high mileage - 24k+ over 2-3 years.
There is a body of recycled opinion in these forums that all s6 engines are inherently fragile and about to go pop any time. My view is that there were specific issues in the early years that have now largely been dealt with, and failure percentages now are comparable to any other highly tuned performance engine.
I'm not putting down the specific comments of anyone here, but I fear this thread is doomed to go the same way every other S6 thread ever goes and will contain mostly the same old recycled opinions. I would encourage anyone considering an S6 engined TVR to talk to owners of T350s, Tuscans and Tamoras from 2002 on and form your own opinion.
And a bit more on-topic... A warranty is always a good idea and I think anyone offering it on S6 engines out of the 2-year factory warranty will not be short of customers.
Don
There is a body of recycled opinion in these forums that all s6 engines are inherently fragile and about to go pop any time. My view is that there were specific issues in the early years that have now largely been dealt with, and failure percentages now are comparable to any other highly tuned performance engine.
I'm not putting down the specific comments of anyone here, but I fear this thread is doomed to go the same way every other S6 thread ever goes and will contain mostly the same old recycled opinions. I would encourage anyone considering an S6 engined TVR to talk to owners of T350s, Tuscans and Tamoras from 2002 on and form your own opinion.
And a bit more on-topic... A warranty is always a good idea and I think anyone offering it on S6 engines out of the 2-year factory warranty will not be short of customers.
Don
Ffirg 005 said:
there have been very few issues with S6 engines from 2002 onwards. Some of these have done relatively high mileage - 24k+ over 2-3 years.
Sadly my '02 with only 12,000 miles blew up, but as this was a failure of the chain drive for the scavenge pump, I guess it's not your typical Sp 6 failure, but still absolutely s**t for an expensive low mileage car
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