TVR vs Porsche 911
Discussion
Just thought I would see if other Cerbera owners find that possessing the Cerb makes 911s look and sound pale in comparison.
I used to be absolutely mesmerised by the shapes and sounds of 911s - Now, the 911 Carrera for example (which you see everywhere nowadays) inspires nothing but yawns.
Is this because:
(a) the 911 body styling has become less ambitious (save in the case of the top-top, rare-rare models),
(b) the Boxster has diluted the brand, and/or
(c) TVR is simply head and shoulders above Porsche in the styling and sound-effects department?
I used to be absolutely mesmerised by the shapes and sounds of 911s - Now, the 911 Carrera for example (which you see everywhere nowadays) inspires nothing but yawns.
Is this because:
(a) the 911 body styling has become less ambitious (save in the case of the top-top, rare-rare models),
(b) the Boxster has diluted the brand, and/or
(c) TVR is simply head and shoulders above Porsche in the styling and sound-effects department?
I drove Porsches for 12 years and loved the cars [and the brand]. Still do admire the engineering. Had Cerbera for last 3 years and would not defect back to Porsche again though. Current range [apart from GT2 etc] too 'ordinary' now - more akin to a BMW/Merc in driving than a sportscar. No longer the raw non-abs/non-traction control/no PAS like the old 'fun' ones used to be. Porsche have taken the right commercial decicions though [most profitable car maker still?] as there's lots more folks who want an easy-to-drive car with a prestige badge than a bite-yer-bum car with a prestige badge. I presume Porsche will continue to market the brand perfectly as an excellent sports car, while making the product easy to drive/live with, so that 'normal' folks fall in love on the first 5 minute drive out of the showroom. There are obviously others [most here?] that want something where the performance/rawness/driving experience is paramount, where it takes many many miles to fully appreciate the car, and for those there is the Cerbera. But these folks are the minority of the car buying public, so will always have to be satisfied by lower volume offerings.
WB
WB
Tis an old chestnut, Razor and one that illicits much passion from all quarters.
Yes, TVRs are generally more raucous but the simple reality is that both marques have 'soft' and 'hard' protaganists.
A 996 GT3, for example, is as far from unintoxicating as anyone could seriously wish to get and I do believe there is a superficial adherence to the 'TVR is noisy therefore it must be more involving' line of thought, which often rides roughshod over other equally meritous qualities which colour the 'driving experience,' such as tactility of gearchange, actual engine sound rather than just exghaust note (a point often overlooked - a Vauxhall Nova GTE can sound great courtesy of Blitz, if that's your thing but it ain't ever going to compare with the chainsaw wail of a 911 2.7RS or a 360 Modena at full tilt [this is aimed more at Chimps and Griffs than Cerbs which obviously have a 'race-bred' engine and sound]), and handling balance etc.
Simple fact remains that if TVRs were simply more reliable they'd sell far more, which may not be related to anything to do with rawness. I'd still be a Cerby driver if the bloody thing had worked but it didn't and I don't find the German solution in any way less invigorating. And I'm really not saying that just 'cos I have one. Indeed, on the subject of rawness, I reckon the lethal cocktail of pollutants my Beetle vomits forth (which I'm convinced permeates the cockpit too!) is far worse than anything the Cerb ever did (and that was completely devoid of felines itself).
But it's built like a brick sh1thouse and always starts and has never actually skipped a beat. Come to think of it, it probably scares me more than the Cerb ever did. Admittedly, the Tuscan R might be a different story...
Like I've said before, you really need 'em both. Bugger.
Yes, TVRs are generally more raucous but the simple reality is that both marques have 'soft' and 'hard' protaganists.
A 996 GT3, for example, is as far from unintoxicating as anyone could seriously wish to get and I do believe there is a superficial adherence to the 'TVR is noisy therefore it must be more involving' line of thought, which often rides roughshod over other equally meritous qualities which colour the 'driving experience,' such as tactility of gearchange, actual engine sound rather than just exghaust note (a point often overlooked - a Vauxhall Nova GTE can sound great courtesy of Blitz, if that's your thing but it ain't ever going to compare with the chainsaw wail of a 911 2.7RS or a 360 Modena at full tilt [this is aimed more at Chimps and Griffs than Cerbs which obviously have a 'race-bred' engine and sound]), and handling balance etc.
Simple fact remains that if TVRs were simply more reliable they'd sell far more, which may not be related to anything to do with rawness. I'd still be a Cerby driver if the bloody thing had worked but it didn't and I don't find the German solution in any way less invigorating. And I'm really not saying that just 'cos I have one. Indeed, on the subject of rawness, I reckon the lethal cocktail of pollutants my Beetle vomits forth (which I'm convinced permeates the cockpit too!) is far worse than anything the Cerb ever did (and that was completely devoid of felines itself).
But it's built like a brick sh1thouse and always starts and has never actually skipped a beat. Come to think of it, it probably scares me more than the Cerb ever did. Admittedly, the Tuscan R might be a different story...
Like I've said before, you really need 'em both. Bugger.
quote:
Just thought I would see if other Cerbera owners find that possessing the Cerb makes 911s look and sound pale in comparison.
No.
Well..I'm not Cerbera owner although I recently enjoyed a fabulous drive in whatever's fine example (thanks, Keith!). It sounds marvellous, goes incredibly swiftly.
I own a Chimaera 450. Beautiful car. Love it. Sound track is just brilliant - and its practical!
But I also own a Boxster S. Sheer class. Easy to live with, also highly practical and rewarding when driven hard. Its as quick in the real world as the Chimaera...and given the way it corners its a bundle of fun on track too.
So..does liking TVRs make me like Porsches less? No. Not at all.
But I'm sure there will be others who simply can't stand one or other makes...
Whoo hoo. Porsche v TVR. Here we go again....
Tks for replies.
I agree that German cars like Porsche, BMW and even VW (my other car is a VR6 which starts on the button etc) are "reliable", "easy", "practical" etc and may respond well when pushed, but my point remains that "aesthetically" and "aurally" they don't do as much for me (and others, inc the wife) as TVR, which has instant appeal.
I dreamt about 911s (and other things ...) for years, but when I eventually went to the Porsche dealer, I did not feel any buzz from the new cars (admittedly, Carreras and Boxsters, rather than TT, RS etc) - literally a week later I went to the TVR dealer and almost wept with joy at the sight and sound of the Cerbera and Tuscan.
Yes, Porsche may have 'reliability' sorted, but is it really worth the extra £20,000 or so (or £40,000 in the case of the 911 TT)? Plus, from what I read on this site, a number of people use their Cerberas every day and don't experience the reliability horrors of old.
I agree that German cars like Porsche, BMW and even VW (my other car is a VR6 which starts on the button etc) are "reliable", "easy", "practical" etc and may respond well when pushed, but my point remains that "aesthetically" and "aurally" they don't do as much for me (and others, inc the wife) as TVR, which has instant appeal.
I dreamt about 911s (and other things ...) for years, but when I eventually went to the Porsche dealer, I did not feel any buzz from the new cars (admittedly, Carreras and Boxsters, rather than TT, RS etc) - literally a week later I went to the TVR dealer and almost wept with joy at the sight and sound of the Cerbera and Tuscan.
Yes, Porsche may have 'reliability' sorted, but is it really worth the extra £20,000 or so (or £40,000 in the case of the 911 TT)? Plus, from what I read on this site, a number of people use their Cerberas every day and don't experience the reliability horrors of old.
quote:
Yes, Porsche may have 'reliability' sorted, but is it really worth the extra £20,000 or so (or £40,000 in the case of the 911 TT)? Plus, from what I read on this site, a number of people use their Cerberas every day and don't experience the reliability horrors of old.
You seem to be implying that reliability is an unimportant factor?
And as I look oot the window at my 993TT I feel a very similar tingle of aesthetic delight to when the object of my desire was rosso pearlescent and had a TVR badge on it.
Last evening, as the last trilby-shod Micras trundled off the highway, I fired up the hun and went for a serious bit of personal speed limit recalibration: the 4.5 litre Cerby is/was/always will be one of the most savage accelerative experiences c/o the internal combustion engine and four tyres but the preposterous grunt I felt (in 6th gear for God's sake) at frankly unstateable velocities was undoubtedly beyond my recollections of Blackpool's finest.
Combine that with the nitrousesque 30-100 sprint past Cosseh-Man and the hilarious, spleen trashing retardation of the best brakes on the planet this side of ceramics and the ability to take tight roundabouts at near EVO VI/VII velocities and exit with the whack just shy of the lunge associated with the discharge of a Howitzer shell and I tell ya, I was not missing the Cerb.
Ok, ok, sound - well as I said before, the backfire from a decatted Cerb is truly a glorious thing but there's bugger all to criticise with an air cooled Stuttgart lump doing it's 'thang' and anyway, can you really hear owt except the slipstream at xxx mph?
Derestrictor,
I don't use my TVR on anything like a daily basis; but, I have read that other Cerb owners use theirs every day without significant reliability problems. I acknowledge that German manufacturers seems to have the edge on reliability, but, if TVRs are acceptably reliable, why pay out 10s of 000s of extra ££££?
Reading your post, I think the answer is: only if it's a 911 TT - then you get the best of both worlds and get to stick it to drivers of such mighty machines as the Ford Sierra/Escort, Nissan Micra etc :-)
My original post was really directed to 99.98% of the 911s on the road (Carrera 2, 3, 4 or whatever); they're booooring.
One other thing: do you find other drivers more aggressive towards you than when you drove the Cerb?
I think that the Cerb is the 1st car I've driven which actually scares off other drivers and results in rubber necks galore.
I don't use my TVR on anything like a daily basis; but, I have read that other Cerb owners use theirs every day without significant reliability problems. I acknowledge that German manufacturers seems to have the edge on reliability, but, if TVRs are acceptably reliable, why pay out 10s of 000s of extra ££££?
Reading your post, I think the answer is: only if it's a 911 TT - then you get the best of both worlds and get to stick it to drivers of such mighty machines as the Ford Sierra/Escort, Nissan Micra etc :-)
My original post was really directed to 99.98% of the 911s on the road (Carrera 2, 3, 4 or whatever); they're booooring.
One other thing: do you find other drivers more aggressive towards you than when you drove the Cerb?
I think that the Cerb is the 1st car I've driven which actually scares off other drivers and results in rubber necks galore.
quote:
Tks for replies.
I agree that German cars like Porsche, BMW and even VW (my other car is a VR6 which starts on the button etc) are "reliable", "easy", "practical" etc and may respond well when pushed, but my point remains that "aesthetically" and "aurally" they don't do as much for me (and others, inc the wife) as TVR, which has instant appeal.
I dreamt about 911s (and other things ...) for years, but when I eventually went to the Porsche dealer, I did not feel any buzz from the new cars (admittedly, Carreras and Boxsters, rather than TT, RS etc) - literally a week later I went to the TVR dealer and almost wept with joy at the sight and sound of the Cerbera and Tuscan.
Yes, Porsche may have 'reliability' sorted, but is it really worth the extra £20,000 or so (or £40,000 in the case of the 911 TT)? Plus, from what I read on this site, a number of people use their Cerberas every day and don't experience the reliability horrors of old.
For me the TT is worth every penny more than the Cerbera, and yes I have owned a TVR and driven every modern car in the range apart from the Tuscan R, The Porsche is just fantastic in every department where as the TVR only reaches this in 1 or 2 areas.
The only area that the TT lacked in was the exhaust note and this has now been changed for a sports exhaust, just superb.....
I am on my 3rd Porsche now and have a order on the 2005 Turbo so unless the Tuscan R is bullet proof I will be sticking with them.
Cheers
Lee.
I am with you on your point about the majority of 911s rather than the (absolutely superb) TT (and closely related brethren), and I offer this as proof;
My business partner and I have the same budget for cars (within a couple of grand either way). I went for the 4.5 Cerb, he went for a Carrera 4.
His car is superb - the wet weather handling, in particular, is excellent. BUT (you just knew there was a but coming, didn't you?) nobody pays a blind bit of attention to his car. When he drives into the car park (which happens to be right outside a pub garden) nobody's gaze strays from their pint or the barmaid's cleavage. On the other hand, 90% of the drunken sots will be craning their necks and salivating before I even get there.
So, if you want capable but dare I suggest mundane - buy a cooking Porsche. If you want outrageous looks, sounds and straight line performance buy a Cerb/Tuscan etc
Pros and Cons dear boys, pros and cons.
(plus, of course, he is all done in at 165mph)
My business partner and I have the same budget for cars (within a couple of grand either way). I went for the 4.5 Cerb, he went for a Carrera 4.
His car is superb - the wet weather handling, in particular, is excellent. BUT (you just knew there was a but coming, didn't you?) nobody pays a blind bit of attention to his car. When he drives into the car park (which happens to be right outside a pub garden) nobody's gaze strays from their pint or the barmaid's cleavage. On the other hand, 90% of the drunken sots will be craning their necks and salivating before I even get there.
So, if you want capable but dare I suggest mundane - buy a cooking Porsche. If you want outrageous looks, sounds and straight line performance buy a Cerb/Tuscan etc
Pros and Cons dear boys, pros and cons.
(plus, of course, he is all done in at 165mph)
quote:
One other thing: do you find other drivers more aggressive towards you than when you drove the Cerb?
I think that the Cerb is the 1st car I've driven which actually scares off other drivers and results in rubber necks galore.
Hi Razor,
Surprisingly, perhaps, no! I've mentioned previously being abused whilst in the Cerb by a gaggle of Max Power bods although generally reactions were favourable, enthusiastic even, especially on petrol forecourts.
This topic's been done elsewhere but I've found a strange respect by the citizens of Scrotedom as far as the 993TT's concerned. They seem obsessed with the Turbo concept (no great plaudit, I concede, coming from such a miserable quarter) and in their own inimitable way, give it a reasonably wide birth and always compliment rather than denigrate. Everyday people, on the whole, tend towards the impartial although bikers seem overtly disposed to an extremely friendly degree. Reactions from other drivers tend to be along the lines of 'go on, give it some lightspeed' and I've never had the finger or 'sign of the archer' but I'm sure that's me focussing too much on the next bend and impending hedgerow!
Maybe the 911 is just too ubiquitous generally (with only the cognescenti appreciating the hammer blow of the twin turbo delivery) for people to be that reactive? Perhaps they're viewed as 'a bit better than Beemers' so nothing mega special? I dunno.
Cost-wise, if you can get a pukka 993TT for £40-50K (LHD v. RHD) from a good source/OPC, it's not much more expensive than a very nice 4.5 Cerby at £35-£40 so I don't think second hand the disparities are great. Take your point re. the new option price comparison - after all, I did but mine really was a citrous fruit!
Sooo, what do we think? I could really drone on for hours about the thing but I'll gladly raise a glass with any from Blackpool. They're all sodding fantastic so vive la difference! To hell with the speed limit - just burn roober!
Just in case anyone thinks you have to spend 50k to get an interesting Porsche, my 911 RS (1992 year) with a cat bypass and secondary silencer bypass sounds *rather* good and handles like a slightly oversized Caterham - all for 24k.
Ok, at 163mph top whack it's not the quickest Porsche, and a Cerby will nail it from rest to 100. But believe me, the Cerby won't get away on a winding road. See one on track and you'll know why.
You could get most of this 'pure Porsche' experience from a 968 Club Sport for as little as 11k GBP, as well.
So I wholeheartedly agree that most Porsches on the road are boring, but that there may be one or two in a TVR price bracket that won't be.
If you *do* need the ultimate sense of reliability afforded by a Porsche or 'sorted' TVR, you'll have to invest the time and energy in finding the rare beast - either a reliable TVR or a characterful Porsche. Both are petrol head cars, but reach the same conclusion by different means.
Cheers
Domster
Ok, at 163mph top whack it's not the quickest Porsche, and a Cerby will nail it from rest to 100. But believe me, the Cerby won't get away on a winding road. See one on track and you'll know why.
You could get most of this 'pure Porsche' experience from a 968 Club Sport for as little as 11k GBP, as well.
So I wholeheartedly agree that most Porsches on the road are boring, but that there may be one or two in a TVR price bracket that won't be.
If you *do* need the ultimate sense of reliability afforded by a Porsche or 'sorted' TVR, you'll have to invest the time and energy in finding the rare beast - either a reliable TVR or a characterful Porsche. Both are petrol head cars, but reach the same conclusion by different means.
Cheers
Domster
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