Wanted - Millers Oils CRO 10w-40 Competition Running In Oil
Discussion
it's almost a contradiction in terms competition and running in.
So many myths, about it running in that is, read up online about how critical it is that any piston engine is "bedded" in and that's the most important word.How those piston rings are bedded in can make huge differences in how they seal and operate for the life of the engine, don't do it right and they can never operate correctly (read Blowby) resulting in loss of power.Whatever you do don't put any fancy oil in it until everything has stabilized, bring it up to full operating temp as quick as you can, then drive like you have stolen it, 1000 miles later in a road car put your fancy oil in.
So many myths, about it running in that is, read up online about how critical it is that any piston engine is "bedded" in and that's the most important word.How those piston rings are bedded in can make huge differences in how they seal and operate for the life of the engine, don't do it right and they can never operate correctly (read Blowby) resulting in loss of power.Whatever you do don't put any fancy oil in it until everything has stabilized, bring it up to full operating temp as quick as you can, then drive like you have stolen it, 1000 miles later in a road car put your fancy oil in.
A lot of different opinions but my experience is that it's worth the effort, particularly on zero hour crate engines. Those first 20 minutes are what matter most. Do it properly and you'll get good power, no tightness, and a reliable engine.
That's not to say putting fully synthetic in your engine from the start will cause problems, but just it will take 10,000 miles to get to the same place.
How much do you need?
That's not to say putting fully synthetic in your engine from the start will cause problems, but just it will take 10,000 miles to get to the same place.
How much do you need?
k20erham said:
bang on advice,
I think so too, but it is controversial... I learned the hard way as a youngster - built a screaming A-Series but ran it in using Mobil 1 - BIG mistake, the rings never bedded in...I also remember an article way back in the old days of Performance Bikes (I think) they did a power run test on a bunch of bikes - the ones that hadn´t been run in and thrashed from the crate were the best power producers...
I'm 56 years young and built most everything really, trucks cars bikes planes, always always bring it upto temp to stabilize as quickly as possible, shut it down check for leaks missing tools and the most obvious (errors) that we all make, then drive/ride/fly it like you've stole it, difficult I know if you have changed the spec and unsure about fueling Ign settings ETC
For my Duratec caterham (SuperSport R spec) I went for the millers oil for 500 miles and drove it very hard from the word go. I've not rolling roaded it but it feels very strong. What I do know is it uses very little, if any, oil so from my perspective the advice above seems sound.
You could probably even argue the case for:
0-500 miles = running in oil
500-1000 miles = high quality mineral oil
1000 onwards = synthetic oil to manufacturers spec
Very tempted to find a rolling road just to satisfy my own curiosities.
You could probably even argue the case for:
0-500 miles = running in oil
500-1000 miles = high quality mineral oil
1000 onwards = synthetic oil to manufacturers spec
Very tempted to find a rolling road just to satisfy my own curiosities.
A
My three current cars, 530D, 350SLK and R400D are the latest of this lot.
Never had an engine that's given me any mechanical trouble, used oil or given me any concern about its performance.
"Drive 'em like you stole 'em" if you wish, I'll stick to what I know works!!
k20erham said:
I'm 56 years young and built most everything really, trucks cars bikes planes, always always bring it upto temp to stabilize as quickly as possible, shut it down check for leaks missing tools and the most obvious (errors) that we all make, then drive/ride/fly it like you've stole it, difficult I know if you have changed the spec and unsure about fueling Ign settings ETC
I a few years older than you and have owned 18 new cars during my time, petrol, diesel, BMW, MB, Ralliart Mitz, 911S. I've always run them in steadily (as most manufacturers advise) building up load over 1000/1500 miles. Best part of a million miles between them. My three current cars, 530D, 350SLK and R400D are the latest of this lot.
Never had an engine that's given me any mechanical trouble, used oil or given me any concern about its performance.
"Drive 'em like you stole 'em" if you wish, I'll stick to what I know works!!
REALIST123 said:
I a few years older than you and have owned 18 new cars during my time, petrol, diesel, BMW, MB, Ralliart Mitz, 911S. I've always run them in steadily (as most manufacturers advise) building up load over 1000/1500 miles. Best part of a million miles between them.
My three current cars, 530D, 350SLK and R400D are the latest of this lot.
Never had an engine that's given me any mechanical trouble, used oil or given me any concern about its performance.
"Drive 'em like you stole 'em" if you wish, I'll stick to what I know works!!
The first thing to understand is that's the process of running in will happen one way or an other, whatever you do. I don't particularly buy the argument that that the bores will glaze over and the rings will never seal. Of course they will, there's a continuous wear process happening all the time. My three current cars, 530D, 350SLK and R400D are the latest of this lot.
Never had an engine that's given me any mechanical trouble, used oil or given me any concern about its performance.
"Drive 'em like you stole 'em" if you wish, I'll stick to what I know works!!
But wear is at it's maximum (in the useful lifespan of the engine ) when the engine is new because the raw machine finishes cause greater friction. Getting this early wear period over and done with quickly as possible is essential in race engines to ensure adequate clearances. There lies the danger of a slow run-in; if the engine has never experienced full power, when it does, the clearances may not be adequate and the mechanism to allow rapid wear will no longer be there. The net result is hot parts that soon become distressed - the classic example is oil burning due to rings being stressed/broken
Edited by DCL on Wednesday 11th November 22:11
Bang on advice DCL, what works for someone is one thing and one has to respect that,but the laws of physics are another, I've pulled motors apart expensive ones at that where a chap has paid handsomely for an overhaul and then disputes the engines performance, on a number of occasions it's all pointed to an incorrect bedding/running in procedure.
It's only advice to the OP,drive it like miss Daisy on fancy oil CAN lead to break in issues FACT. Bring it upto temp check it and call for full power reasonably quickly 15 mins or so on regular oil= NO break in issues FACT,assuming it was built correctly that is. You pay your money and take your chance FACT.
It's only advice to the OP,drive it like miss Daisy on fancy oil CAN lead to break in issues FACT. Bring it upto temp check it and call for full power reasonably quickly 15 mins or so on regular oil= NO break in issues FACT,assuming it was built correctly that is. You pay your money and take your chance FACT.
A
I appreciate that race engines typically have short lives between rebuilds and time/mileage is limited and would also add that Millers only suggest the 'running in' oil for running in race engines on a dyno where load and temperature can be closely controlled.
DCL said:
The first thing to understand is that's the process of running in will happen one way or an other, whatever you do. I don't particularly buy the argument that that the bores will glaze over and the rings will never seal. Of course they will, there's a continuous wear process happening all the time.
But wear is at it's maximum (in the useful lifespan of the engine ) when the engine is new because the raw machine finishes cause greater friction. Getting this early wear period over and done with quickly as possible is essential in race engines to ensure adequate clearances. There lies the danger of a slow run-in; if the engine has never experienced full power, when it does, the clearances may not be adequate and the mechanism to allow rapid wear will no longer be there. The net result is hot parts that soon become distressed - the classic example is oil burning due to rings being stressed/broken
Not arguing with your theory but nothing in what you say argues against a gradual build up to full power, before sustained use of full power. Any heat build up/wear at initial full load would be less after a period of light use than if full load were applied early. But wear is at it's maximum (in the useful lifespan of the engine ) when the engine is new because the raw machine finishes cause greater friction. Getting this early wear period over and done with quickly as possible is essential in race engines to ensure adequate clearances. There lies the danger of a slow run-in; if the engine has never experienced full power, when it does, the clearances may not be adequate and the mechanism to allow rapid wear will no longer be there. The net result is hot parts that soon become distressed - the classic example is oil burning due to rings being stressed/broken
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 11th November 22:11
I appreciate that race engines typically have short lives between rebuilds and time/mileage is limited and would also add that Millers only suggest the 'running in' oil for running in race engines on a dyno where load and temperature can be closely controlled.
Those piston rings do not know what engine they are in, the machine shop finish the piston bore clearance to the engine builder's spec and or application same with the ring gaps. I appreciate the demands made of a race engine are worlds apart from most cooking road car engines, but it's the first 30 mins or so that can affect performance of both.
It's an interesting topic. Also one where one feels comfortable following the engine builders advice (which in my case wasn't drive it like you stole it).
I'm never convinced that The word FACT makes a very compelling argument
Do you have those facts we could read?
Bert
I'm never convinced that The word FACT makes a very compelling argument
Do you have those facts we could read?Bert
k20erham said:
Bang on advice DCL, what works for someone is one thing and one has to respect that,but the laws of physics are another, I've pulled motors apart expensive ones at that where a chap has paid handsomely for an overhaul and then disputes the engines performance, on a number of occasions it's all pointed to an incorrect bedding/running in procedure.
It's only advice to the OP,drive it like miss Daisy on fancy oil CAN lead to break in issues FACT. Bring it upto temp check it and call for full power reasonably quickly 15 mins or so on regular oil= NO break in issues FACT,assuming it was built correctly that is. You pay your money and take your chance FACT.
It's only advice to the OP,drive it like miss Daisy on fancy oil CAN lead to break in issues FACT. Bring it upto temp check it and call for full power reasonably quickly 15 mins or so on regular oil= NO break in issues FACT,assuming it was built correctly that is. You pay your money and take your chance FACT.
k20erham said:
Those piston rings do not know what engine they are in, the machine shop finish the piston bore clearance to the engine builder's spec and or application same with the ring gaps. I appreciate the demands made of a race engine are worlds apart from most cooking road car engines, but it's the first 30 mins or so that can affect performance of both.
That's obviously true but it isn't just about piston rings and bores is it?REALIST123 said:
That's obviously true but it isn't just about piston rings and bores is it?
In practical terms it is. Modern plain bearings are so thin (the bearing surface anyway) that they should not contact or wear at all. Cams run-in irrespective of power, Cam chains (if used) and oil pumps again run-in irrespective of power. In fact they all have a harder time at lower RPMs as hydrodynamic lubrication is weaker. So taking it easy may not be as kind on your engine as you might think.
Millers may have some you can have! I don't know who replaced Graham Lord who was the technical director that I used to have a cuppa and chat with 20 odd years ago at Brighouse when we delivered the base oils to them to blend, he was a proper gent and very open with his knowledge.
Not that it matters that much as discussed in the thread, is your engine something really special? known/unknown build? just food for thought that you sound to be getting close to "running in" and out of budget for a drop of oil? I don't blame you for wanting Millers it's a very good blender.
Choose your method and enjoy
Not that it matters that much as discussed in the thread, is your engine something really special? known/unknown build? just food for thought that you sound to be getting close to "running in" and out of budget for a drop of oil? I don't blame you for wanting Millers it's a very good blender.
Choose your method and enjoy
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