Anybody ever sued Paypal (Small claims)
Discussion
I brought a small claims action (Scotland) a number of years ago and they settled the week before the case was to be heard; I had sold an unmarked iPod classic for circa. £150 - the buyer then claimed it was not as described and then promptly sent back a different, trashed iPod. He was then successful in his chargeback request. Paypal didn't even investigate my case, and the fact the buyer was operating two separate eBay accounts (one to buy [where he ripped people off] and another to sell). The week before the small claims date I received a cheque for the £150, court fees (£54) plus interest at 8% since the date of service. I knew they would settle as it is uneconomical for them to pay a solicitor to prepare the case then appear in person.
If you have been ripped off and Paypal haven't been diligent in investigating your case then I would not hesitate in bringing a small claims case against them - paypal are a complete nightmare and nearly always side with the buyer even when they are in the wrong. I wouldn't worry too much about Paypal's terms and conditions - they can say what they like, but it's up to a court/sheriff to decide whether they are fair or not. For £300 I suspect they won't even bother defending it. The annoying part is that whilst Paypal will recompense you, the "buyer" will probably not have to pay anything.
If you have been ripped off and Paypal haven't been diligent in investigating your case then I would not hesitate in bringing a small claims case against them - paypal are a complete nightmare and nearly always side with the buyer even when they are in the wrong. I wouldn't worry too much about Paypal's terms and conditions - they can say what they like, but it's up to a court/sheriff to decide whether they are fair or not. For £300 I suspect they won't even bother defending it. The annoying part is that whilst Paypal will recompense you, the "buyer" will probably not have to pay anything.
Edited by tim0409 on Sunday 15th November 22:19
Thanks.
It's a business account. We use the net to trade in refurb electronic handbrakes. Bloke came to have one fitted, but the car had badly fitted calipers (2 different design on each side, and both were wrong), so it would not work. Checked on our car, and it worked fine, checked a second unit on his car and it failed. Offered to fit the calipers at less than cost, but that was not accepted. Now he wants the refurb brake unit,and a complete refund.
Paypal have sided with the buyer, without in my view considering the evidence, and given him money back without requiring him to even return the unit.
I think this is unfair and that's the basis of the small claims.
Any chance based on this? (admittedly my side of the story)
It's a business account. We use the net to trade in refurb electronic handbrakes. Bloke came to have one fitted, but the car had badly fitted calipers (2 different design on each side, and both were wrong), so it would not work. Checked on our car, and it worked fine, checked a second unit on his car and it failed. Offered to fit the calipers at less than cost, but that was not accepted. Now he wants the refurb brake unit,and a complete refund.
Paypal have sided with the buyer, without in my view considering the evidence, and given him money back without requiring him to even return the unit.
I think this is unfair and that's the basis of the small claims.
Any chance based on this? (admittedly my side of the story)
This will be long and drawn out. Paypal won't turn up to court and if the case is decided in your favour they won't pay up in a hurry either. They'll probably freeze or delete your account.
I had an issue with a buyer who was long story short a lying thieving crock of agricultural waste. Lied about not getting item despite proof of delivery. Then item turned up and was the claimed it wasn't the right item and then it was broken. Then he treated to break it if i didn't refund him. Paypal refunded but I went on the phone to paypal everyday for a week until they listened and decided in my favour.
I had an issue with a buyer who was long story short a lying thieving crock of agricultural waste. Lied about not getting item despite proof of delivery. Then item turned up and was the claimed it wasn't the right item and then it was broken. Then he treated to break it if i didn't refund him. Paypal refunded but I went on the phone to paypal everyday for a week until they listened and decided in my favour.
You have/had a contract with the buyer. Payment was made via Paypal, but the contract for supply/fit of the item is between you and the buyer.
He seemingly has used Paypal to rescind the agreement and get a full refund (in certain circumstances he may be entitled to rescind)
If so, he has no right to keep the item, irrespective of whether Paypal refund the money or not.
You will get more traction, in my view, if you take direct action against the buyer.
Contact them, reminding them that they do not own the item and it must be returned. You will pay reasonable postage (or arrange collection).
If they claim they've sold it, they owe you the proceeds of conversion of your asset. I expect they are an involuntary bailee and owe you a duty of care to safekeep the item. If they have converted the asset, they hold the proceeds on trust I think.
Not really my area of law - no doubt others will be along.
He seemingly has used Paypal to rescind the agreement and get a full refund (in certain circumstances he may be entitled to rescind)
If so, he has no right to keep the item, irrespective of whether Paypal refund the money or not.
You will get more traction, in my view, if you take direct action against the buyer.
Contact them, reminding them that they do not own the item and it must be returned. You will pay reasonable postage (or arrange collection).
If they claim they've sold it, they owe you the proceeds of conversion of your asset. I expect they are an involuntary bailee and owe you a duty of care to safekeep the item. If they have converted the asset, they hold the proceeds on trust I think.
Not really my area of law - no doubt others will be along.
Edited by johnfm on Monday 16th November 13:24
Interesting.
Yes I fit, and take cash - that works. But I also trade on the net, and refurb items by post. It's a big part of my revenue stream.
In this event, the unit did not work on the car, but did on the test rig. With his MOT fast approaching, he decided to drive down to us and ask us to sort it out. So he had already paid. Really we were doing him a favour.
He was in my workshop for hours, and was ranting and raving that I couldn't fix it - even though I knew what the problem was, and had the parts. He was unwilling / unable to pay me for the parts. Another customer in the workshop at the time made the comment 'What a knob'.
I offered to fit the parts at less than I paid for them, and he could pay half now and half in a week (£300 quids worth of parts that I was making a loss on mind) - but this was no good.
He gets back home, raises the case with PP, cites intimidation and violence, asks for his money back - PP refund in full and he still has my brake. (And most of the value on this is labour and skill which is not refundable)
To say I find this unfair is an understatement.
I know this is my side of the story, but you can imagine how I'm feeling. Had close to 50k payments with PP this year, and this is the first dispute.
Yes I fit, and take cash - that works. But I also trade on the net, and refurb items by post. It's a big part of my revenue stream.
In this event, the unit did not work on the car, but did on the test rig. With his MOT fast approaching, he decided to drive down to us and ask us to sort it out. So he had already paid. Really we were doing him a favour.
He was in my workshop for hours, and was ranting and raving that I couldn't fix it - even though I knew what the problem was, and had the parts. He was unwilling / unable to pay me for the parts. Another customer in the workshop at the time made the comment 'What a knob'.
I offered to fit the parts at less than I paid for them, and he could pay half now and half in a week (£300 quids worth of parts that I was making a loss on mind) - but this was no good.
He gets back home, raises the case with PP, cites intimidation and violence, asks for his money back - PP refund in full and he still has my brake. (And most of the value on this is labour and skill which is not refundable)
To say I find this unfair is an understatement.
I know this is my side of the story, but you can imagine how I'm feeling. Had close to 50k payments with PP this year, and this is the first dispute.
My thinking was (is?) that the contract is not with the customer now -it's with Paypal. It's PP who have refunded the money when they should not have. Therefore it's PP in the wrong.
Is this bodged thinking?
WRT to the 50k spent through PP, they take about 3% of that, and won't be taking anymore unless they look after me.
Is this bodged thinking?
WRT to the 50k spent through PP, they take about 3% of that, and won't be taking anymore unless they look after me.
bearman68 said:
My thinking was (is?) that the contract is not with the customer now -it's with Paypal. It's PP who have refunded the money when they should not have. Therefore it's PP in the wrong.
Is this bodged thinking?
WRT to the 50k spent through PP, they take about 3% of that, and won't be taking anymore unless they look after me.
I'd go after the customer & forget suing Paypal. Paypal have to side with someone & unfortunately that's not you this time - ultimately, you can't prove any of what happened with this bloke to Paypal. They wouldn't have been interested in the blokes ranting, just the "it didn't work" bit. Is this bodged thinking?
WRT to the 50k spent through PP, they take about 3% of that, and won't be taking anymore unless they look after me.
If the customer has your goods & you've done work for him, then forget taking Paypal to court, take the customer for your parts and your labour. You've got his name & address so I'd go for it. You might want to try phoning Paypal up & speaking to them, but I don't think you'll get anywhere.
johnfm said:
Paypal will not give a toss about a few hundred quid you've lost.
Virtually zero point pursuing them. I think it is unlikely you will get far with them.
Pursue s
t customer.
This.Virtually zero point pursuing them. I think it is unlikely you will get far with them.
Pursue s
t customer.Have Paypal breached a contract with you?
Good luck constructing the Particulars of Claim, and referring to their terms, and suing a company probably based abroad.
Customer has your goods and your money, and knows they've f
ked you over. Easier claim.bearman68 said:
My thinking was (is?) that the contract is not with the customer now -it's with Paypal. It's PP who have refunded the money when they should not have. Therefore it's PP in the wrong.
Is this bodged thinking?
WRT to the 50k spent through PP, they take about 3% of that, and won't be taking anymore unless they look after me.
You have a contract with Paypal - they provide payment provision services to you. Depending on the terms of that contract, Paypal may or may not be in breach. My guess is the terms give them the right to do so - and so I think pursuing Paypal for that may be fruitless (though it might not - I don't know what their terms are.)Is this bodged thinking?
WRT to the 50k spent through PP, they take about 3% of that, and won't be taking anymore unless they look after me.
You also had a contract with your customer. It seems he has now made certain claims to Paypal that he is unhappy with the goods/services or both. In any event, he may (or may not) have a valid cause for damages for breach (based on Supply of Goods & Services Act - there are implied terms under S13 that services will be supplied with reasonable care and skill; or the Sale of Good Act where there are implied terms as to the quality of goods supplied) or to rescind based on what you told him to induce him to agree to the goods/services.
In any event, he should have first raised his concerns with you.
As I posted earlier, if he is so unhappy that he wants a full refund, i am not convinced he has the right to retain the goods.
It is complex - and probably not worth the effort for a few hundred quid - there are complex-ish arguments over his rights to rescind (hard to put the parties back to their original position if you have replaced his calipers and thrown out the mismatched ones), bailment issues and whatnot.
Unless it is mega-costly to you, I'd merely chalk it up and don't waste the mental energy chasing the guy.
Have you actually picked up the phone and talked to a PayPal rep?
In my opinion (not widely held I know) they aren't too bad.
I've had a merchant account for 12 years and a few weeks ago we got our first ever chargeback. Customer said she hadn't authorised the use of her
card!
Anyway, we called PayPal and talked to a representative (in the UK as well).
The upshot was although we couldn't prove our case as we were long standing users they refunded the chargeback into our account and covered the costs of the action as well.
Give it a go.
Customer has goods.
Customer paid with paypal.
Customer subsequently instructed Paypal not to pay you and to return monies to the customer.
The logical and unavoidable conclusion is that the customer has not paid for the goods that he has. Imagine the customer had paid by cheque and instructed his bank to stop the cheque - its exactly the same thing.
If you want to sue anyone (is it worth it for £300?), sue the customer. To me (IANAL) it seems a very clear case.
Customer paid with paypal.
Customer subsequently instructed Paypal not to pay you and to return monies to the customer.
The logical and unavoidable conclusion is that the customer has not paid for the goods that he has. Imagine the customer had paid by cheque and instructed his bank to stop the cheque - its exactly the same thing.
If you want to sue anyone (is it worth it for £300?), sue the customer. To me (IANAL) it seems a very clear case.
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